Reserve PC Goes Off During Pin Check

[skylord 1]

I posted the technical side of this in Gear and Rigging, but I wanted to flesh out the details here and get some feedback.

Rented gear today for some jumps, I had an Infinity this time. Did three jumps, I was using a packer, and on my fourth jump (as is my custom) I did a ground check of the pins and pilot chute line. When I opened the small flap over the reserve pin, it seemed that something was pushing the larger flap up. So I undid the larger flap, and the reserve pin looked to me like it was bent up at about a 25 degree angle. I knew this wasn't right, and tried feeling around where the end of the pin should have been. Pop! That very distinctive, unmistakable pop such little pins make with their Jack in the Box pilot chutes shooting past my befuddled head.

I was stunned, but the reaction I got is what bothered me. The first was an angry exclamation, "What did you do?" I didn't do anything, I was preflighting the gear and Pop! Goes the Weasel. That couldn't have happened, I must have pulled it, I was told. Yeah, like I'm bored so decided to stir things up by pulling the reserve while making a 25 minute call that I already paid for.

So off we go to the rental place, and all over again it's "You pulled this, you must have, you have to pay for this." No, dammit, I was doing my preflight check and it popped on its own. How it got there, I have no idea. I felt like I was defending myself for doing a pin check that disclosed there was indeed a problem that manifested itself at the barest level. I thought it ironic we're having this discussion safely on the ground rather than the thing going while I'm floating and I'm riding the plane back down, reserve wrapped around the tail with me as the tow banner.

So, I was charged $15 to reclose the thing, and was told if the rigger who packed the reserve can't get to it in time, I have to pay for a repack, too. All for shit that happened while I was making sure the rig was safe to fly. It wasn't.

Maybe due to my inexperience I blew it, I should have just grabbed a rigger and pointed the problem out, but I was just trying to find the end of the pin, very gently, with less than a few ounces of pressure. I sure don't think I should be forced to pay for a closure and/or reserve repack. If I am, I will, it is a far cheaper price to pay than seeing my ass dragged across the runway on "Live at Five".

Bob

Bob Marks

"-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman

[freeflir29 0]

Not saying you were wrong but if it had been me..............As soon as I thought a pin was bent I would have taken it to a rigger for inspection. A bent pin should be replaced.........no if's and's or but's.

[Beverly 1]

Yikes, bent pin?

I would have rushed off to someone that knew what they were looking at.
I really don't know gear well enough to fiddle, but can identify if something looks dodgy.

I don't think that you should be responible for a repack, but there should be a follow up on the rig.
I would suggest not jumping that one again until they have done all the checks.

There have been problems with pins and all rigs had to go through testing, there may be a problem with that one.

Like I said, I am not very clued when it comes to rigging.
Just an opinion.

I think true friendship is under-rated

Twitter: @Dreamskygirlsa

[Squeak 17]

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Not saying you were wrong but if it had been me..............As soon as I thought a pin was bent I would have taken it to a rigger for inspection. A bent pin should be replaced.........no if's and's or but's.

If the pin was bent, would it not still be bent? If so, be buggered if I'd pay $15, screw that I'd have done my block

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[highfly 0]

lmfao

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screw that I'd have done my block

Was you one of Ian Durys' Blockheads Squeak?

www.myspace.com/durtymac

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[tdog 0]

If nothing else, it sounds like the place you rented it from does not understand customer service. I am sure these places deal with tons of stupid skydivers and get tired of getting burned....

The few times I have rented gear from places I have done my first gear check before I have even signed the paperwork or taken it from the shop... Did you check the pin before you left??? If not, perhaps this is a good idea for us all, so we can show the guy behind the desk and let it go "pop" in his face.... I will remember your story for the "next time" I have to borrow gear.

NOTE: If they make you pay for the repack, ask them when the last pack date was... You should only have to pay for the amount of time left before the next due packjob... If they got 2 months of use before "pop" - you should only pay half, for the time that was not used...

If they have a problem with this, explain to them, you think it is fair because they were going to have to repack it anyway in a few months and they already earned profit for the time in which it was packed and used by other customers... If they made you pay full price, you would actually be paying for half of the routine planned packjobs that they should be paying for.

[wildblue 7]

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to me like it was bent up at about a 25 degree angle.

The pin wasn't actually bent, right? The end had gone into the grommet, so the other end was sticking up?

You made 4 jumps, was the pin in the correct place on the other three?

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[JohnMitchell 16]

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to me like it was bent up at about a 25 degree angle.

The pin wasn't actually bent, right? The end had gone into the grommet, so the other end was sticking up?

You made 4 jumps, was the pin in the correct place on the other three?

And somehow that pin had gotten pulled into that position. Could that have been you or do you think it was that way before you got the rig? Anyway, it would have been very dangerous to jump that rig without a pincheck. Better $15 and angry on the ground than seriously injured or dead. Good job.

[skybytch 273]

If this happened to you on a rig that you owned, who would have paid for it? You aren't a student anymore. When you rent a rig, you essentially own it for the amount of time it was rented to you for. Ya break it, ya fix it.

Consider that $15 to have been a cheap lesson.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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When I opened the small flap over the reserve pin, it seemed that something was pushing the larger flap up. So I undid the larger flap, and the reserve pin looked to me like it was bent up at about a 25 degree angle. I knew this wasn't right, and tried feeling around where the end of the pin should have been. Pop!

Can you explain this better?

Derek

[skylord 1]

The pin was NOT actually bent, it lust looked like that to me when I opened the larger flap. The pin was NOT laying flat against the container.

I checked the pin when I turned the AAD on at the rental store, and it was fine. During the other three jumps it was fine. If it was working its way out, I couldn't tell.

When I did the check, i opened the smaller (lower) flap, the larger flap you open to see the whole pin and arm the AAD seemed to have something pushing it slightly open, so I carefully opened the large flap and that was when I saw the pin sticking up. Like I said, I thought it was bent, and tried feeling for where the pin should be seated. And pop.

I know this is like asking a two year old about what they witnessed in a car accident, but this is the best I can describe it. Thanks for all the replies....

Bob

Bob Marks

"-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman

[Hooknswoop 19]

So the pin was almost out of the loop, resting on one side of the grommet and the tip through the loop but not touching the other side of the grommet?

How did the reserve pin get moved? Was the rig in your care the entire time?

It doesn't matter if you did it on purpose or not, you pulled the pin. It didn't come out on its own. Sounds like the pin got moved while the rig was on your back, then it didn't take to get it to clear the loop. You should be thankful that you didn't have a pre-mature reserve deployment that could have killed you and others. Very cheap lesson to be very careful with your rig in the plane and on the ground. It doesn't take much to dislodge the reserve pin.

If you rent something, you are responsible for it.

As for pro-rating the re-closing of the rig, $15 is cheap and it doesn't take any less work if there was 119 days left on the pack job or 1.

Derek

[billvon 3,096]

>As soon as I thought a pin was bent . . .

The way I read it, the pin was not bent. The pin had cleared one side of the grommet, and only the tension in the reserve cable (and friction) was keeping it from coming all the way out. The pressure from the reserve closing loop was bending the pin up at an angle. At your next reserve repack, if you very slowly slide your reserve pin out of the loop, you may see it do this for a moment before it finally gives up.

I've seen this a few times, once just before exit on someone else's reserve. This is one of the more dangerous problems to find in the plane because _everyone_ is tempted to try to fix it, and usually it's unfixable. Messing with it generally results in a PC launch.

[skylord 1]

Bill,

That describes it exactly.

The rig was with me the whole time except when I was having it packed (for Derek).

Bob

Bob Marks

"-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman

[Feeblemind 1]

Silly question: Were you packing or paying for pack jobs?

I had a friend that had his reserve "Pop" while closing up his main tray. He was pulling tension and somehow trapped the cable as he pulled the on the main closing loop to place his pin and Pop went the reserve.

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The rig was with me the whole time except when I was having it packed (for Derek).

Ya, then that one is on you, sorry. Again, cheap lesson.

Derek

[skycat 0]

You may want to start thinking about packing for yourself during the day. Packers tend to drag the rig across the floor as they stow the lines to the d-bag. When they are dragging it, it wouldn't be hard for something to snag the excess cable that hangs out the bottom of the reserve ripcord. (I'm assuming this rig doesn't have a soft handle on the reserve side)

Fly it like you stole it!

[skylord 1]

You are correct, no soft handle on the reserve side....

Bob Marks

"-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman

[thepollster 0]

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You may want to start thinking about packing for yourself during the day. Some Packers tend to drag the rig across the floor as they stow the lines to the d-bag. When they are dragging it, it wouldn't be hard for something to snag the excess cable that hangs out the bottom of the reserve ripcord. (I'm assuming this rig doesn't have a soft handle on the reserve side)

I fixed it for you. I would avoid packers who drag your rig, and if you choose to drag a rig, I would strongly suggest using a packing mat.

[smiles 0]

-back in the days when we used the crotch (V) on a cessna to launch 4 way (and I had this slot on a dive)

-we were doing a jam up of our launch before loading the plane when my reserve popped.....and I was in the V !!!!!!!


Had a t-shirt made with "NO 'V' for me!!" on the front with a graphic of reserve popping in this slot.

The closing loop had broken- not where it covered the pin but underneath where it had worn from a sharp gromet....(changed my rigger and of course replaced gromets- gear had less than 100 jumps)

Needless to say we then stopped using the 'V' slot on cessnas at our d.z.---(4-ways launched with far hanger, wheel, poised, and door.)

SMiles

eustress. : a positive form of stress having a beneficial effect on health, motivation, performance, and emotional well-being.

[BillyVance 35]

We still use the "V" on 4 way launches with our C182. It's usually a smaller jumper getting that slot though.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[mjosparky 4]

I spoke the skylord on Sunday evening about this incident. He told me the reserve handle, to his knowledge, was never out of the pocket. If this was the case, and I do not believe he was lying to me, at the very least someone should find out if there is a problem with the rig that may have caused this to happen. I would be curious to see how much of the reserve cable extends past the reserve handle when the pin is fully seated. I have seen rigs were the ball is tight against the handle and by moving around with the harness tight the pin can be made to move.

I do not think the $15.00 bucks was all that important to him. I think the attitude of the person he dealt with was what bothered him the most. As someone posted earlier, poor customer service. This is not the first person I have heard mention "attitude" when referring to the person skylord spoke to. At what point does the company renting equipment accept responsibility for problems with the gear. "
Maybe due to my inexperience I blew it, " The very people that most often rent gear are the ones least likely to be able to identify problems.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skylord 1]

Sparky is correct, it wasn't the cash, it was the accusations that flew around me, almost universally that I had done something "bad". I caught a serious situation with the rig on the ground, and it would have meant the world to me if someone had said, "Wow, good for you for checking while still on terra firma." Really, if I was sitting near the door and it went out, I'm going through the tail of the airplane. So you're right, it is a cheap $15 lesson for me, but also the rental store. And I'm doing a pin check on the ground every single time.

Frankly, I feel like I'm going to be looked at as the idiot that fired his reserve PC when I go back to rent (a different rig, thank you) from the same place. I may have low numbers, but I'm known as being careful and thorough by anyone who knows me.

I'm a big boy, I won't let that stop me, and PLEASE understand that if anyone was there who is reading this thread I am NOT talking about some of the good natured jabs while I'm walking back to the store with a reserve PC in my hand. It was the people who should know better that this stuff happens either on the ground or in the plane. It is the jumper's choice. I opted for the ground, my decision was correct, safe and I stand by it even if the reserve PC decided it was in danger and self launched.

I could have handled this better, as I said, I should have just grabbed a rigger to look at it, and to my discredit, I do NOT remember the distance between the little ball and the reserve handle. That was a great point Sparky raised, my bad for not knowing.

I learned so much this weekend, and my thanks to all of you for the posts, very informative, very helpful, and very supportive even when being educative (versus critical) of some aspects as to how I handled it. Thanks all, and what's important is I'm around to jump again and bitch at people that piss me off!!

Bob

Bob Marks

"-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman

[Broke 0]

Yar if you see something that dosen't look quite right you should go hmmm let me have the rigger check that out. My favorite answer is when a rigger says that'll work for this jump, but I am going to replace it before the next one.

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I caught a serious situation with the rig on the ground

That you probably caused. That means you break even. Kinda like if the story of the 2 guys that rescued a bunch of people of out an apartment complex fire that they started, they aren't heros, they just broke even.

If the ripcord cable is too shorte for the rig, then you got screwed and the rig needs to be fixed by replacing the ripcord with a longer one. But since the pin didn't move on the first 3 jumps, I doubt this is the case.

People forget that they have 2 pins back there and need to be very careful with their rigs in the airplane. The reserve pin is limited to 22-lbs. pull force with out the seal and the main has no such limits. It amazes me how often people sit down and hit their rigs against something in the plane.

Derek