jumper03 0 #26 November 28, 2005 Update, more info and the decision... I marked all three tests zero because I don't know who did the work and who copied. When I went to mark the grades in my spreadsheet, the same three were flagged on the first test. Everyone in the class bombed that test and I made them all take it home, redo it and bring it back for regrading. These same three had very similar answers which caused me to flag the grades. However, those tests were hand written. This last round, they just hit print three times. Per our student handbook code - I will conduct an interview with the three students with an outside observer. I will inform them they have each received a grade of zero on this test unless they can offer an explanation. They had one chance already. and my god - it was a test on volcanos - why wouldn't you want to write own your own about volcanic eruptions, different lavas, different geographical and geological settings....boogles the mind. Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
swedishcelt 0 #27 November 28, 2005 Isn't it always amazing how when students make a bad decision the teachers end up doing and going through SOOO much work to take care of it appropriately? It gets exhausting sometimes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #28 November 28, 2005 Preach it Sister!!!Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #29 November 28, 2005 QuoteIsn't it always amazing how when students make a bad decision the teachers end up doing and going through SOOO much work to take care of it appropriately? It gets exhausting sometimes. There's good reason for it. Students who cheat have demonstrated that honesty is optional when it comes to their own self interests. Therefore, it is foreseeable that these same students would speak some untruths about the teacher in order to advance their own self-interests. It is therefore important that the teacher shield him/herself from these allegations and have enough documentation and evidence to ensure that these charges, if made, won't stick. Secondarily, it has the benefit of ensuring that the student is given every opportunity to defend him/herself against the allegations. You always wanna be thorough before making decisions like this. But, my goodness, what IDIOT students to each submit the same paper without any changes. "MCFLY!!! Do you know what will happen if I submit my paper without any changes in format, grammar or analysis? I'll get kicked outta school. You wouldn't want that to happen, would you? WOULD YOU?" My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WatchYourStep 0 #30 November 28, 2005 I think what you did was totally justified even if they hadn't been "flagged" on a previous test. I'm a recent college grad (12-03) and I can see the merits of what tdog suggested, but that doesn't hold much water in my book. If you were to allow the students to make up the test what kind of message does that send to the others who busted their butts and made sure they were prepared for the task at hand? Not a good one. Even if the 2nd test is harder it doesn't matter. Taking a harder test isn't punishment, it's a freebie, a redo, a mulligan or whatever you want to call it. IMHO a failing grade on the test or in the class sends a strong message. An F in a 3 credit hour class (if that's what it is) can make a substantial impact on a person's GPA. Granted they are seniors so their GPA is probably about where it is going to be, but it still sends a message. If they have to retake the class, they are out money and to me that would send a message. Nice job. "You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #31 November 28, 2005 QuoteYou are right, if you think INSIDE the box... We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I guess. Your solution, IMHO, teaches them that you can "fix" cheating after the fact. In my mind, that's the kind of mentality that will get them in trouble later on in life. I believe that your approach turns this into a discussion of how much Steve (or any professor/instructor) motivates his students to learn. This isn't a question of how interested they were in the subject, or how much they wanted to learn. It's a question of right and wrong. The most important thing to them was their grade. By giving them a new assignment and allowing them to get a new grade for it, it's reinforcing that the grade is the most important thing. It's not a lesson about geology at this point. It's a lesson about ethics. Oh, and if I'm coming off a little high-horsey about this, let me assure everyone that I'm far from perfect on this. I cheated on assignments in high school on occasion. There was little to no penalty for it, and no one really cared (and because I was in honors classes, we were assumed to be "good" kids and got away with more). We were all grubbing grades to get into the best colleges we could. I then went to a college with a very strong, student-run honor system, and I got the point, I got the message, and it really helped me to understand why cheating wasn't the right thing to do. If I wasn't prepared for a paper or a test, I did it on my own anyway and sometimes paid the price with a crappy grade. But I didn't cheat. I honestly believe it's helped shape who I am today and how I choose to live my life today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McDuck 0 #32 November 28, 2005 Are these the same students who did no work, completed no assignments and then came crawling to you at the last minute for extra-credit when they found out at midterm that they were going to fail? Oh, by the way, my father is good friends with the professor who taught those same courses at that same school before you. When they begged him to come back, he told them, in no uncertain terms, "Not only no, but HELL no." For the same reasons and concerns you have about the "faculty".Kevin - Sonic Beef #5 - OrFun #28 "I never take myself too seriously, 'cuz everybody know fat birds don't fly." - FLC Online communities: proof that people never mature much past high school. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #33 November 29, 2005 final update on this and I'm glad it's behind me. I'm actually more disappointed than anything else I had to convene an Academic Intergrity meeting with an outside observer to inform the students of my suspicions, give them a chance to explain and then the decision. Let's just say the explanation was weak. All three recieved zero's on the test. They are going to have to ace the final to pass the class. They have a chance to appeal if they think they are being treated unfairly, but the look on their faces said it all. I think they were more concerned with getting caught than with having cheated. Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thegreekone 0 #34 November 29, 2005 I teach film studies and am so amazed that students quote whole passages of reviews (bad ones at that) and/or never footnote. Sheesh, I went to a prison camp for grad school, we read everything and I PLEAD with them to assume I have read everything and STILL they try to pass stuff of as their own. I hate being the bad guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #35 November 29, 2005 Well there went your tuesday, shot to hell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #36 November 29, 2005 QuoteWell there went your tuesday, shot to hell. tuesday is about to get better - I'm going to buy beer. Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #37 November 29, 2005 Wouldnt it be better than just "better" if someone were to buy YOU beers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #38 November 29, 2005 QuoteWouldnt it be better than just "better" if someone were to buy YOU beers? *looks around* *crickets* Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rebecca 0 #39 November 29, 2005 QuoteQuoteWouldnt it be better than just "better" if someone were to buy YOU beers? *looks around* *crickets* I think you should bill the cheaters - they owe you for pain and suffering. you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #40 November 29, 2005 QuoteQuoteWouldnt it be better than just "better" if someone were to buy YOU beers? *looks around* *crickets* Never known any crickets to buy beers. Keep looking around. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #41 November 29, 2005 Sucks you can't do more. Here's hoping that final is reeeeeeally hard."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
