A hair-raising experience.

[pchapman 279]

Hi Hackish:
You mean the wrong way being an extra fold back of the free end, so that the excess stows not on the main part of the chest strap, but across the other side of the buckle? If that's correct:

I'm not yet convinced that that's bad. I see the point that if the free end gets pulled away from the buckle, it will eventually rotate the buckle so that it loosens off, just like when one pulls up on the edge of the buckle to loosen it.

But that takes a lot of rotation to accomplish, and if the free end is stowed in an elastic as usual, it stays in place. Also, one might argue that the extra fold is one extra change of direction that could add friction to the system. That's a bit theoretical though.

Your idea did get me to go and play around with my chest strap. I played with repeatedly pushing the main lift webs closer and yanking them apart, giving them a bunch of 'cycles' to try to loosen the chest strap. This is on a rig with a single layer strap, which would make it loosen more easily.

I found the 'extra fold back' way actually better than the 'normal' way. In the normal way, when the MLW's are pushed together and pulled apart, both parts of the chest strap loosen and tighten -- that's both the main part of the strap and the free end that is snugged up against it with a keeper. When it all loosens there's a big loop of loose strap going around the parts of the buckle.


But with the extra fold back method, only the main part of the chest strap loosens and tightens. The free end, with a keeper keeping it in place on the other side of the buckle, never loosens.

So there is less that gets loose every time the MLWs come closer. After many repeated cycles, the chest strap stayed tight while with the normal way of stowing the strap, the chest strap got looser and looser. With the normal way, the free end was still stowed in its keeper, but the whole thing kept sliding closer to the buckle.

The way with the extra fold, back over the buckle, seems to actually be superior in my test in reducing the chance of loosening off after being unloaded.

I don't know what the answer is here. Is folding the chest strap back over the buckle considered by some others wrong too?

I fold it that way; I find it convenient to set up and makes it easier to pop the excess out to loosen the chest strap after opening.

Interesting topic in any case as I don't recall anyone ever discussing which way is better or acceptable.

[billvon 3,116]

>That one didn't bother me quite as much as Bruce Johnson's rig that was way too long.

You're talking about several different things here.

Main lift web length determines the distance from your hip rings to the canopy attach point, so making that longer or shorter will affect how much "higher" the rings are above your shoulders.

Yoke length determines how far back down your back the rig starts, and a combination of yoke length and container length determines where your PC will be. A short container can have a long yoke and still put the PC low; a larger container can have a short yoke and offset laterals that put the PC quite high.

[gearless_chris 1]

Thanks Billvon, I'll watch for that and see if I can find an example. I assumed that her rig fit like that because she is shorter than me, and it was sized for smaller canopies (Crossfire 149, and either a PD143, or a Cricket, don't remember which reserve it had). The shorter yoke length might explain why it seemed to me like her 3 rings were more on top of my shoulders than more towards the front like mine then right?

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[BUBLHED 0]

The shorter yoke length might explain why it seemed to me like her 3 rings were more on top of my shoulders than more towards the front like mine then right?



I read it as the longer main lift web is why the 3-rings are more on top of your shoulders. My last custom container would have a large gap between my shoulders and the over the shoulder part of the rig with the large ring really high by my ears. Was this most likely due to improper measuring in the first place before ordering the rig? Yes the legstraps were tightened down well. I am saving for a new rig and that "fit" really bothered me. Wasn't afraid of falling out just was irritating, I would like to avoid this on the new gear.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[upndownshop 0]

You have to excuse Dom, he's a newbie! Dooh!

[gearless_chris 1]

Irritating is quite the understatement when I had to use the too tall rig. My sidemount camera kept hitting the mainlift webs and getting stuck, I couldn't really look up either because my helmet was up against the reserve. Try flying around without moving your head a few times, wait, don't do that it's not a good idea. I hated that canopy(150 Stilleto), until we put it in my rig that fit me right, then I loved it. Bruce was around 6', I'm 5'7" so there was a big difference. With Paula's little rig I felt like it might be possible to slip out the back, if I tried hard enough. With the main open I could feel the bottom of the reserve just below my shoulder blades.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[aresye 0]

The person I bought the rig from was 5'10", and I am the same. He is also the same body type as me, so the rig pretty much fit me as well as it fit him.

Under canopy, I would say with an average opening my shoulders are approx. 3" below the straps. This is due to my leg straps loosening a slight bit. I'll try doubling up on my leg straps and chest strap, to see if I can prevent all slippage from occuring. The leg straps are in very good condition, and the buckles are stainless steel, so they don't have as much tension as a broken in strap or buckle. The softer the opening, the more they loosen, but never enough to pose a danger (I think). On a recent hard opening about jump 92, I had no slippage whatsoever in the leg straps because of the sudden tension.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[dgskydive 0]

Quote

You have to excuse Dom, he's a newbie! Dooh!

back at ya

Dom

[DJL 235]

PC, I do a modified version of what you have in the diagram. I have a keeper on both sides of the hardware and the effect is that it keeps everything flat and tension occurs in the direction that everything was intended.

Edit to add diagram. I think this takes any guessing out of it and it's good for rigs like mine that have a horse-dick worth of extra chest strap material.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Scrumpot 1]

The only problem with that, is that it obscures the "quick visual" I usually like to give everyone on a load with me, for those who cross their excess straps back over their tensioners. Of course for women, it just means I need to manually feel it, to obtain the confirmation I was looking for is all.

Carry on.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[AFFI 0]

Quote

for those who cross their excess straps back over their tensioners - it obscures the "quick visual".

Second that.
Everyone makes mistakes from time to time and covering your routing at the chest buckle does not allow for a visual inspection by others on the load. I have spotted a misrouted chest-strap from halfway across a full Otter before, but had that person covered up their mistake I would have never seen it. I know there is at least one manufacture that recommends this type of routing but I never understood why they would design their chest buckle in this configuration.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[fasted3 0]

I agree that everyone makes mistakes from time to time, and I am no exception. Far from it; I've forgotten my helmet, goggles, altimeter, hook knife, and would have forgotten a vital body part, no doubt, if they weren't attached.
But I will never forget my leg straps.
And,
I will never misroute my chest strap.

No doubt the keyboard warriors are making mental notes to bring up this post when I do forget them and burn in.
But I won't.
Donning my gear is a ritual. I start by stepping into my straps. If my rig is on, my leg straps are on. I finish by properly routing my chest strap and tightening it, then stowing the excess.
If my chest strap is on, it is properly routed - that simple. I have not deviated from this since I was a student, and it works for me.
I came to this sport late in life. I was a commercial diver, and have been well schooled in donning life saving equipment. I could not afford to do ANYTHING WRONG - EVER! Try turning on your bail out bottle at -300 feet and realizing it's not hooked up. Guess what - common mistake
I learned how to hook up everything myself, and test as I went. Where other guys would stand there and let a tender gear him up, I did everything myself. I was forgetful then too, but I never screwed up in 20 years. I followed a procedure, the same way every time; I call it a ritual.
This works people.
If you rely on remembering to get your stuff right later, eventually, you won't. If you are strutting around with your leg straps slapping you on the butt, I have to ask you what the heck you are thinking?
If you slip your chest strap on and it's not routed right, why on earth stop without MAKING it right, before you do another thing? If you can't do that, take it all the way loose. You are a lot less likely to jump out with it off than with it 'almost' right.
I just don't put on my gear 'almost right.' If it's on, I know it's on right. Being fairly new at skydiving, I came up in a time without gear checks being what they apparently once were. It just hasn't been a tradition with me, and honestly, that fits my style just fine. If I don't know you, I'd just as soon you didn't handle my gear. I checked it before I put it on, (that's part of the ritual too,) and I know it's right. How do I know you even know what to look for, or that you'll put it back right? Of course, If I have any suspicion something has been dislodged, I will not hesitate to ask for a check. I am certainly not against gear checks either, each person should make their own decisions about it, I would just never rely on anybody else for my own gear.
I'm sorry for turning this into an essay, or lecture or something, but I think it is entirely possible to completely eliminate forgetting leg straps and misrouting chest straps if this advice were taken to heart. Develop a foolproof procedure. Make it a ritual. Get it right every time.
Putting on skydiving equipment is mission critical.
Put it on right, or don't put it on at all.

But what do I know?

[Scrumpot 1]

As many people who also think as you - still, for whatever wacky reason(s) - maybe it's just inescapable human nature, no matter what we think or how we feel - it happens.

I have pointed out misrouted cheststraps on loads more than once. One time - during actual climb-out while being just a "visiting jumper" at Elsinore - to a free-flier setting up in the coffin corner behind us, actually PREPARING TO EXIT!

All it takes is that one time when you do break your routine, and for whatever reason - are hurried to make a turning load - whatever, and as outrageous as it may seem or sound, still - it does happen. Might not "ever happen to you", and that is great!

Still, for most readers regardless - "word to the wise".

How's that?
Fair enough?

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[fasted3 0]

When you say many people feel as I do, I think you mean:
'I will never make a mistake.'
Which I did say. (re: leg straps and chest strap.)
But how many people feel as I do:
Develop a foolproof routine. Make it a ritual. Follow it like you're life depends on it.
That was the safety tip I wanted to get across.
I agree with you that simply thinking one is incapable of making a mistake is foolish, however, a proper routine can eliminate mistakes. Do you think I will ever forget my leg straps?
(...sure as hell better not after this...)
BTW, I'm sure we are on the same side here. Do everything you can to get it right, Don't get compacent. Look out for others. My advice just has to do with getting it right in the first place.

But what do I know?

[dgskydive 0]

dude, have you ever locked your keys in the car? You know that you need them to get in the house or into work and to, Duh, get back in the car. But I bet you have done it at least once in your life. Granted you wont die from locking your car keys in car, but it is an example of forgetting something so basic that it is stupid.

Please never say never, just be vigilante and do your checks, but dont think you are above misrouting your chest strap or even not doing it up at all. Once people start thinking they are above doing something stupid, that is when it gets ya.

You may make it through your skydiving days without this ever happening, but to say with 100% certainty that it will never happen, may lead to complacency and to a very unfortunate ACCIDENT.

Dom

[fasted3 0]

I will ask you the same question as above:
Do you think I will ever forget my leg straps?
Consider that my procedure dictates stepping in as the first step, and I will not go further without it.
Yes I forget things, that is the point.
Proper procedure can prevent this type of mistake.
If everybody followed my procedure, would this not prevent everybody from ever making that mistake?
Am I missing something?
PS Car keys: Never shut off the car without taking the keys out. Never close the door without reaching in and touching the keyhole first.
If your life depended on it, that would be the way to go.

But what do I know?

[dgskydive 0]

Quote

I will ask you the same question as above:
Do you think I will ever forget my leg straps?
Consider that my procedure dictates stepping in as the first step, and I will not go further without it.
Yes I forget things, that is the point.
Proper procedure can prevent this type of mistake.
If everybody followed my procedure, would this not prevent everybody from ever making that mistake?
Am I missing something?
PS Car keys: Never shut off the car without taking the keys out. Never close the door without reaching in and touching the keyhole first.
If your life depended on it, that would be the way to go.

I think that it is a possibility that you MAY miss them when jumping a wingsuit. There are many who have and I can guarantee that they NEVER thought they would either. Not to knock your experience or jump numbers (assuming your info is up to date), but some of those jumpers have 3 times the total of your numbers and experience on wingsuits alone. I have personally witnessed a jumper that did not get his legs through his leg strap when wearing a wing suit. He was very heads up jumper. His words when he landed..... "how could I be so stupid as to miss my leg straps!!!!"

I think the point you are missing is that SHIT happens, even to the best of people. Hell... people have gotten in a plane and jumped with no rig!!! Do you think they ever thought they would do that??? Do you think the people on the plane with ever thought they would miss catching a jumper without a rig getting on, let alone exiting?

My point is never say never and be safe. Once you, me or any jumper starts thinking that they are beyond making a stupid mistake, that is when they get in trouble.

AS far as your car keys. I call BS. Everyone has locked there keys in the car at some point.

Dom

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I agree that everyone makes mistakes from time to time, and I am no exception...I've forgotten my helmet, goggles, altimeter, hook knife...

But I will never forget my leg straps.

And,

I will never misroute my chest strap.


I came up in a time without gear checks being what they apparently once were. If I don't know you, I'd just as soon you didn't handle my gear. I checked it before I put it on, (that's part of the ritual too,) and I know it's right. How do I know you even know what to look for, or that you'll put it back right?
I would just never rely on anybody else for my own gear.



If everybody followed my procedure...

[fasted3 0]

I'm missing your point.
I think it is entirely possible to eliminate a certain problem, IE: Jumping out of an airplane without having one's legs through the leg straps of one's rig.
Is your point my use of the word never?
Here is another one:
If I EVER jump out of an airplane without first putting my legs through the straps, I will NEVER jump again.
Fair enough?
I do have a point with this, and I invite further discussion. I have started a new thread: Leg straps. Seeya there.

But what do I know?

[fasted3 0]

I think that it is a possibility that you MAY miss them when jumping a wingsuit.

Bullshit. I do jump a wingsuit, and I ALWAYS put my leg straps on first. It will NEVER HAPPEN if I NEVER deviate from that procedure.

There are many who have and I can guarantee that they NEVER thought they would either.

This has nothing to do with THINKING they would remember to do something, and everything to do with developing a fool proof system for yourself that will make sure that it NEVER happens. Mine guarantees that I won't forgegt my leg straps. Maybe it doesn't guarantee anything else, which I don't claim it does, but it does indeed guaran-fucking-tee that my leg straps are on. Get it?

Not to knock your experience or jump numbers (assuming your info is up to date), but some of those jumpers have 3 times the total of your numbers and experience on wingsuits alone.

I don't care how many jumps you or any of them have. This is stuff I figured out (and got trained on,) before I got my A license. It works as well now as it did then.

I have personally witnessed a jumper that did not get his legs through his leg strap when wearing a wing suit. He was very heads up jumper. His words when he landed..... "how could I be so stupid as to miss my leg straps!!!!"

I KNOW how it happened. Maybe you can figure it out too.

BTW: You are welcome too on the leg strap thread. This response may have been overly harsh, and I would like to avoid flames with this discussion, so sorry if I went too far.

But what do I know?

[Scrumpot 1]

Are wingsuit jumps the only jumps you ever intend to do any longer, througout the remainder of your jumping career? If so, then I just might acquiesce to your argument that for YOU - you just may never forget.

So long as you can:

1. NEVER have your routine either distracted or interupted...

2. NEVER ever be rushed for any reason ever, to the plane...

3. NEVER have anything unexpected just happen, just before or during your gearing up...

Etc.

We see your point. But no need to be so absolutely closed minded either. I'll submit to you, by being such in of itself, can be dangerous.

Just FWIW. You make some good points, and I do sincerely appreciate your position and what (I think) it is you are trying to say. The open discussion on it too, I think - has been a benefit to many. I don't look at this conversation thread (nor either your Leg Straps and now Chest Straps poll threads) to be one that should be designed though to 100% "win" over someone's open opinion(s), or to completely quash others either though.

To not recognize that mistakes (oversights, errors or whatever you would like to call them) can happen to ANYONE, is in of itself, IMHO a mistake.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[fasted3 0]

OK, thanks for the tips. I promise to not be complacent. I will continue to hope that everyone has wonderful skydives and never messes up getting their equipment on. I get pissed off hearing about equipment errors, be they leg straps or chest straps, because I think those are preventable errors. Some people are pissed off at me for saying that.
Why? It's an opinion. I get one too. If yours is that NOTHING we can do will prevent someone from messing this up, then that's fine too.
Moving on. And BTW that last statement wasn't directed at anyone in particular...
I offer my ideas about remembering critical stuff, take it or leave it. I don't think these ideas require me to be one who never makes a mistake, has any certain number of jumps, or whatever else you want to argue about. This isn't about me anyway. I have my own ways just like everybody else. They work for me, and if yours work for you then great! If you have any better ideas, speak up! If you want to find fault with me, well, this is dramazone.
I do think some good will come of this being put on the front burner for a while. I hope you have examined the way you do things and done all you can to eliminate mistakes.

But what do I know?

[DJL 235]

Now write "I promise to not be complacent." 100 times and go sit in the corner.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher