Re: [kelter] jumpers with epilepsy--

[Baksteen 84]

To keep the original thread in Disabilities from drifting I opted to crosspost it to here, as it's a safety issue that is addressed.

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in reply to

Quote

Lemmie just say that I didn't read the entire thread, just a few posts here and there.

I agree there should be no shame in epilepsy whatsoever. And that epileptics (please don't go politically correct on me, I've heard it) should have a right to participate in whatever they feel safe doing, even if it might not actually be so. HOWEVER it is something completely different to endanger another human being or even make him or her fear for their lives or safety (within reason). People DO need to be given the choice. They might be total dicks for not listening to reason, but at least they have a choice.

I feel, always give people a choice when their safety is an issue. Doesn't mean you have to like what they choose.

While I see your point I'd like to discuss this matter further.
When exactly is such a choice necessary?
Where is the line between safety issue and privacy?
Of course, I have chosen to "out" my epilepsy on a public forum and those who are inquisitive enough should have no difficulty in determining my real name.

But should I identify myself every single time I am about to jump with someone new as
"Hi, I'm Dennis and I have epilepsy. I have been seizure free since 2002 but I still take medication for it, namely 1000 mg of depakin a day without which the epilepsy will eventually return. I took my meds this morning though, so do you want to jump with me?"

This example is obviously taken to an absurd extreme, but do you get my point?

It's a real pain in the backside to have to explain/educate people about epilepsy every single time, while in my personal case it isn't even any of their business as I'm convinced that whatever risk I might prove to other skydivers has got nothing to do with my epilepsy.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[virgin-burner 1]

now i know why you keep on staying on your belly!

i dont know much about epilepsy, but what causes your seizures? cant flickering lights trigger it!? or stress? guess if you take meds you're gonna be fine. if i were you, i'd make darn sure my cypres (or any AAD of your liking), is turned on. and maybe stay on a docile canopy, just in case.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Baksteen 84]

Most of that story (including my triggers) is found here

You're right, flickering light, stress, sounds, disappointment, lack of oxygen, heat, cold, humidity - all of these can trigger seizures. But every epilepsy case is unique and none of the above are realistic risk factors for me.

My epilepsy is not the main factor (though an important one) for my choice to jump an AAD. I just figure, if this device can significantly improve my chances for survival, why give Darwin a chance?
The same goes for docile canopies and conservative WLs.

No, the point of this thread is the following:
If the Neurologist, the KNVvL, my home DZ-staff and (also quite important) myself all think I can skydive without additional risk, why would I (or, more accurately persons like me) need to keep advertising the fact that I/they have epilepsy, except for educational purposes?
You don't expect someone who is virtually blind without their lenses to make a 'spectacle' out of themselves on every RW-jump by them proclaiming they can't see a thing without their lenses, do you?

Where do your (the "normal" jumper) rights stop and mine begin?
I might be a freak - but not as a result of my epilepsy.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[riggerpaul 1]

Do you have an unrestricted driver's license?
Can you get a pilot's medical certificate?

I don't the know rules where you are.
My point is can you get the governing bodies to say you are fit enough for these activities?

[virgin-burner 1]

sounds pretty reasonable to me.. i'd jump with you anytime, dennis, altough you're a darn belly-flier!

edited to add: i think you're a danger to yourself and others anyway, with or without epilepsy, seizures and or whatever..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Baksteen 84]

I have never gotten around to obtaining a driver's licence, but I could if I wanted to as I'm seizure free for the required period (I forgot how long that period is). Small vehicles only, as long as I take medication. For large vehicles the demands are five years seizure free without medication.
The large vehicle demand stuck in my head since that is the same demand the Dutch Diving Association has adopted to clear one for scuba diving.

A pilot's certificate I can't get for any vehicle including gliders as long as i take depakin since "mind influencing medication" (literally translated) are banned, no exceptions. For skydiving such regulations never have been written up.

Quote

My point is can you get the governing bodies to say you are fit enough for these activities?

I can and have, but that is not the point of this thread. I know I can and am allowed to skydive and will continue to do so. As far as USPA is concerned the clearances i have obtained are even sufficient to let me skydive in the US, as an official was kind enough to inform me upon my request.

What I sought to accomplish with this thread was a more general discussion, not an analysis of my specific case (see OP in this thread).
edited for clarity

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[riggerpaul 1]

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I have never gotten around to obtaining a driver's licence, but I could if I wanted to as I'm seizure free for the required period (I forgot how long they require). Small vehicles only, as long as I take medication. For large vehicles the demands are five years seizure free without medication.
The large vehicle demand stuck in my head since that is the same demand the Dutch Diving Association has adopted to clear one for scuba diving.

A pilot's certificate I can't get for any vehicle including gliders as long as i take depakin since "mind influencing medication" (literally translated) are banned, no exceptions. For skydiving such regulations never have been written up.

Quote

My point is can you get the governing bodies to say you are fit enough for these activities?

I can and have, but that is not the point of this thread. I know I can and am allowed to skydive and will continue to do so. As far as USPA is concerned the clearances i have obtained are even sufficient to let me skydive in the US, as an official was kind enough to inform me upon my request.

What I sought to accomplish with this thread was a more general discussion, not an analysis of my specific case

And my point is that if you are certified to drive, for example, I don't see any need for additional notification. You may choose to notify some, like the dz staff, but I don't see any obligation.

It has to be on a case by case basis. You are not the same as the average passerby.

The risks that you may or may not present to others is the whole question. If you present a significant risk, you should notify. And the actual risks you present are specific to you, not some other person with some other condition, or even some other person with a condition of the same name. As you have pointed out, there are a wide range of causes and effects in the conditions that we call epilepsy.

If someone with the appropriate legal authority has certified that the risk you present to the public is at a low enough level, then I don't see any reason to further invade your privacy.

[fasted3 0]

A seizure during a skydive is a scary thought! Nobody wants that, and this disease increases the risk, although it can be well controlled in most cases with medication. Simply being free of this disease does not guarantee not having a seizure. Accidents cause them sometimes, and an undetected disease could manifest itself this way in anyone.
It can happen to anybody. The greatest risk if it does is to the individual having the seizure. Granted, there is also a possibility of others being involved, but that risk is much smaller.
I do think the DZ should be informed of all medical conditions, and the ultimate decision rests with them. They should screen out people that shouldn't jump, for whatever reason.
Bottom line is that I don't feel the need for an epileptic to disclose their illness to me. If they are willing to accept the risk of jumping, so am I.

But what do I know?

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi Dennis,

I have a old friend ( we have been friends since 1950 and that is a loooong time ago ) who is an epileptic.

He was my instructor for my first jump. I knew of his problem, from our school days, but he only informed a very few, close friends of his condition.

He always said that he could tell whenever he was about to have a seizure however he did have one while sitting next to me while I was driving him home one evening. That was an experience I will never forget.

He went on to make about 1500 jumps and never had any problem while in the air or at the dz. However, I would agree that the dz management should be informed and know what to do in the case of a seizure & whom to contact.

From my experience with him, IMO if you can control things with your medication then you should not have to inform the other jumpers, you are going out with, of your condition. We all can have something happen to us at any time, anywhere, anyhow; there are no guarantees in life.

I cannot put myself in your shoes but I do know a little about the problem.

Good luck with your jumping,

JerryBaumchen

[novacaine 0]

Amen Brother!

I personally believe that not every person on the DZ has the right to know each others medical history. However, I do believe that the DZO and S&T ought to know.
It is each others responciability to keep ourselves safe. This comes with the cost of paying attention to our bodies. Especially being alert and recognizing ones "auras".

Though Denis, I have to agree with ya bro!