livenletfly 0 #1 March 23, 2008 unless you over 7 feet tall i dont see how a container holding over 500 sq/ft of parachutes could possibly be that far up on your back, regardless of harness size. these student rigs are huge and long, some close to 3 feet in length. you know you did some succesful handle touches on the ground, correct? other than a past shoulder injury, i can see no physical reason you wouldnt have been able to reach the hackey in the air! sounds more like mental pressure and performance anxiety to me. ive heard it all from some students that ive pulled for. its never THEIR fault in their eye's. i dont want to start a debate on your inablility to pull on those student jumps, but what you posted just doesnt make any sense and is bordering on accusations of neglegance by your affi. if you some how truly couldnt touch the bottom of the container, that should and would have been addressed before you got in the air. if not by your affI then you should have said something or decided on your own to not jump that rig! maybe you are that tall who knows...> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #2 March 23, 2008 Quote you know you did some successful handle touches on the ground, correct? other than a past shoulder injury, i can see no physical reason you wouldn't have been able to reach the hackey in the air! sounds more like mental pressure and performance anxiety to me. I have seen many times when a student can reach a p/c on the ground (even in a prone position) and then have trouble getting it in the air. As you should know after 8 years in the sport and obviously plenty to say, student rigs don't always fit very good, even after proper adjustment. In freefall, the rig can shift in a variety of ways, putting the p/c in a different location relative to the student's muscle memory (I assume you are familiar with that term). This doesn't always result in missed pulls, and a more experienced jumper may not have a problem getting a p/c after it changes position. But I have seen (and surprised you haven't) many students have trouble getting their hand "back" far enough to find the p/c in freefall. In my experience, less flexible people seem to have the problem more often than others. (bigger guys and older folks in particular). Performance anxiety may be a factor - or even THE factor - but this DOES happen and it's very real. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #3 March 23, 2008 Quote...,less flexible people seem to have the problem more often than others. (bigger guys and older folks in particular). This is the reason police have to sometimes use two sets of cuffs on large guys. The person doesn't have the flexibility to bend their arms behind them. My problem as a student was the shifting of the rig in freefall and the use of different student rigs. I started on a 288 and finished with a 190 so the container kept shrinking on me! This wasn't the instructors fault. It was just the problem with me getting a little better after each jump. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #4 March 23, 2008 It was a bit easier when all students were using hip mounted plastic ripcords. You could suggest they follow a leg strap up to the handle if they had a problem. You can't really do that with a pud in a BOC. Another problem stems from the fact all ground practice, either standing, or prone, involves the student unconsciously using leverage not available in free fall. But students have always had initial pull problems no matter where we mount their handles. And its always been the job of Instructors to overcome these issues with good training and back-up procedures. Everything is always some kind of trade off. It's now better for a student's freefall control that we got away from the "Look" part of Arch, Look, Reach, Pull. However, I've always thought the transition problems later, the stated reason for the change in the first place, were a bit overstated. The real reason is more to save the DZO the bucks it cost to replace lost handles and preserve some resale value on student rigs. And one downside is we now have a generation of jumpers who when they go to pull a real honest to goodness handle in the air for the very first time it will be a cutaway or reserve handle. Oh, and nothing is a student's fault, ever . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 426 #5 March 24, 2008 >>>It was a bit easier when all students were using hip mounted plastic ripcords. You could suggest they follow a leg strap up to the handle if they had a problem. You can't really do that with a pud in a BOC. <<< and a legstrap mounted deployment devise is far less prone to move significantly in freefall. >>>>Another problem stems from the fact all ground practice, either standing, or prone, involves the student unconsciously using leverage not available in free fall.<<< Very good observation and one that isn't often considered. This is especially relevant for folks that may not have good overall flexibility. ChuckChuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #6 March 24, 2008 Short women (and probably men) on big long rigs can have a problem with arm strength; if your arm is fully extended, the pull from the elbow to pull out the pilot chute is not a strong one. I had a hard pull on a pull-out that way once a long time ago (when all rigs were long). I'm not all that wimpy. It bears thinking about with short people starting to jump, when the rigs are bigger; make sure that it's easy enough to pull out. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
