Grad students please read and offer advice

[Richards 0]

UNIVERSITIES ARE SOUL SUCKING VAMPIRES!!!

I am taking the professional student route in life, but I have become completely disillusioned by my experience at the institution I am at ( I will not disclose the name of the University nor will I discuss my particular area, as anonymity is critical under the circumstances). I would really appreciate if any grad students (Masters or Phd), or even professors could read this and tell me if what I have seen here is normal.

I battled to create a academic support centre, and spent a year on proposals, getting it set up, and putting my heart into building it up. As soon as it appeared that my idea was working and a useful investment in students, a large powerful sub-organization in the university moved in and took over the operation. I did not mind so much that I was sent packing but these motherfuckers are now writing about the centre in university publications as though they created the centre. I draw some comfort in the fact that the senior professors in my particular faculty give me credit for it in person but it hurts to see someone taking public credit for my work.

It seems that a few power brokers in the university seem to want to make sure only their own get control over new and existing projects.

Examples of the political BS I have experienced;

> I am not the first person to have a project stolen from them. A tenured professor has told me that the same organization that took my project did the same thing to her, and that it happens all the time here, including with research ideas (no-one seems to want to discuss research until it is published for that reason).

> Back when I was an undergrad I was asked by a professor to work as a TA for another instructor (non-tenured) so I could report back and help this person build a case against this guy and get him fired (for the record I did not go along with this plan)

>I was witness to an excellent professor getting raked across the coals for some political bullshit.

> I have been told openly by two professors that the Program Director (who I had idolized as a mentor), had been using me, while I had been under the impression that he respected me for being one of the top students, and TA’s.

Everyone is backstabbing everyone and while I am well liked by most of the faculty, I am second guessing my aspirations to pursue an academic career. I think the only reason no-one has seriously fucked me over the way I have seen others get it, is that I am too junior to be a threat to anyone, but will that change if I gain greater academic credentials?

I have the respect of several faculty members who insist I will do very well as an academic. They say I should let this stuff slide and stay the course but, I do have doubts now. I can always go back into industry.

I was an older student so I had been in the workforce for several years before coming back to school, and I worked in the industry for a short while before I decided to go back to be a professional student, and while I have dealt with workplace politics, I have never in my life seen such a den of vipers

Would any grad-students (Masters or Phd) or Profesorial types who have been through the process before me please let me know if this is common at all academic institutions, or is this particular school an outlier? Should I get used to this level of underhandedness wherever I go?

I realize that politics is part of life but it appears that at this university it is all anyone does. I used to really admire some of these people.

Please offer advice, personal experiences, perspectives etc.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[wmw999 2,589]

My dad was a college professor from the 1940's until the early 1990's (when he volunteered in retirement). Politics are incredibly brutal.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Carpediem 0]

Quote

Everyone is backstabbing everyone and while I am well liked by most of the faculty, I am second guessing my aspirations to pursue an academic career.

I transferred from my PhD program to a BEd in science (think high school science teacher with summers off) for this very reason...

Alot... and I mean ALOT of work I have put a virology program. When something unusual came of the results (which I was working on and pointed out), the publication had zero mention of my name. I was told there would be, and it would really help a budding career, but there was nothing.

So yes, I feel your pain in the politics. Honestly that's all there is to life for these people I find. So now give me my summers off for jumping and traveling. Fuck that political bullshit.

Good luck with the mess you're in.

Those who do, can't explain. Those who don't, can't understand.

[ryoder 1,590]

Well I'm impressed! I had been cynical about universities preparing students for the real world, but it sounds like your school is doing an excellent job of simulating real-world corporate life.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

I hate to break it to you, but....

Welcome to the real world.

[Carpediem 0]

Quote

Well I'm impressed! I had been cynical about universities preparing students for the real world, but it sounds like your school is doing an excellent job of simulating real-world corporate life.

LMAO!!!

Those who do, can't explain. Those who don't, can't understand.

[lawrocket 3]

In the academic world, sir, name means everything. Published means everything. Credited accomplishment means everything.

Some people have careers where their worth is judged by how much they brought in in sales. Or, how much money they trimmed from the year's expenses. Or even how few of their troops got killed and how little loss of equipment was suffered.

Academics, however, is a different beast. Are you a good teacher? It's a nice side benefit, but not neccessary to a professorship. It's all about "To what is my name officially attached?" Sure, you may have done the work, but that's useless unless you get credited for it.

Academics is an entirely different thing. I find it worse than the real world. In a game of names, assassination of charcacter and name is the easiest, most efficient way of maintaining and building power.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Richards 0]

Well I'm impressed! I had been cynical about universities preparing students for the real world, but it sounds like your school is doing an excellent job of simulating real-world corporate life***

I spent a fair amount of time in the real world before coming back to school and then I did some time in the industry before coming back to the university to pursue an academic career. I have spent years working in the real world and have never seen anything like this. In the real world there are shareholders to satisfy so politics can only go so far.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Richards 0]

Quote

I hate to break it to you, but....

Welcome to the real world

I spent several years in the workforce before becoming a professional student, so I have seen the real world and it's politics. I have never in any labour or corporate job seen anything like this. Have you worked in an academic institution? Pursued an academic career? Working for a large financial institution was actually quite reasonable compared to this (despite the awfull reputation FI's have). Yes we were worked 14 hours a day but at least there initiative was encouraged. It seems as though when there are shareholders to keep happy, the politics do not dominate, performance does. In socialist environments (like the one where I work now) you do not have shareholders, and therefore the "empire builders" can play their stupid games indefinitely.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[skiskyrock 0]

Ever worked back to back 80 hour weeks, then had your advisor return from vacation and tell you weren't making adequate progress? Back to your problem.

It sounds like you are in a pretty typical grad school environment. It is like a wolf pack. Nothing is going to keep the alpha male off of your kill, but a few nips and some territorial pissing will keep most of the pack off until you have finished. In any institution there are power cliques. The best you can do is stay out of their games... establish yourself and your reputation as a professional, not a politician.

People stealing your ideas? Keeping your mouth shut until the moment is ripe is a cherished academic tradition. If it is your advisor, you have a problem... consider switching. If you aren't getting credit for your work, evaluate the situation.. is it worth making an enemy to get a fourth author slot? Probably not. First or second author slot? Enlist some faculty support, then approach the offending professor and state you case usually there is a research ethics panel that will arbitrate, but at that point, you have an enemy. If the work has been accepted to be published, your options are actually better... most journals will drop a paper like a hot potato if they are made aware of an authorship dispute. Let them know you'll piss on your own kill before giving it up.

Everyone gets to this point in one way or another, but it all fades once someone calls you Dr.

[Richards 0]

Academics, however, is a different beast. Are you a good teacher? It's a nice side benefit, but not neccessary to a professorship. It's all about "To what is my name officially attached?" Sure, you may have done the work, but that's useless unless you get credited for it.

It sounds like you have been there. I am nowhere near the point where anyone will be publishing anything of mine (nor is anyone else at my level). At this stage I am still building credentials. While I have taught I am not faculty. I am student (who works almost full time for the university). Most of my research has been on the assisting side.

***Academics is an entirely different thing. I find it worse than the real world. In a game of names, assassination of charcacter and name is the easiest, most efficient way of maintaining and building power***

Truer words have never been spoken. I was in the labour force for many years before I started my undergrad and while there was labour abuse bullshit I always found that if you were reliable you got by. In the bank I found that people encouraged you to develop. If my boss felt I had a greater aptitude than him in an area he would encourage it and give me some responsibility over a greater area.

In the university people are terrified of subordinates who are smarter than them. It is ridiculous! I have people who worked for me who are smarter than me, and it did not bother me. I was glad to know I could leave them to work independantly. One woman I worked for was terrified of me showing initiative. She was like an insecure child who didn't want anyone showing her up. If I had an idea I was forbidden from mentioning it lateraly to other department heads. I had to check with her first, and then she would mention it to them (conveniently forgetting to mention my name). Nobody was allowed to look good except her. Universities are lucky they run on public and not shareholder money. Large investors would not allow feifdoms to supercede efficiency.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Richards 0]

Quote

Ever worked back to back 80 hour weeks, then had your advisor return from vacation and tell you weren't making adequate progress? Back to your problem.

It sounds like you are in a pretty typical grad school environment. It is like a wolf pack. Nothing is going to keep the alpha male off of your kill, but a few nips and some territorial pissing will keep most of the pack off until you have finished. In any institution there are power cliques. The best you can do is stay out of their games... establish yourself and your reputation as a professional, not a politician.

People stealing your ideas? Keeping your mouth shut until the moment is ripe is a cherished academic tradition. If it is your advisor, you have a problem... consider switching. If you aren't getting credit for your work, evaluate the situation.. is it worth making an enemy to get a fourth author slot? Probably not. First or second author slot? Enlist some faculty support, then approach the offending professor and state you case usually there is a research ethics panel that will arbitrate, but at that point, you have an enemy. If the work has been accepted to be published, your options are actually better... most journals will drop a paper like a hot potato if they are made aware of an authorship dispute. Let them know you'll piss on your own kill before giving it up.

Everyone gets to this point in one way or another, but it all fades once someone calls you Dr.

I apreciate your input. It sounds from what you are saying that this is the norm in universities (in fairness I did suspect that before I posed the question). I love what I am doing (research) and I have enjoyed the limitted teaching opportunities I have had. It is not all bad. I have had some excellent experiences here, I simply saw how when an office is run on non-private funds, bullshit baffles brains. I will likely keep going. The challenge as I presume is learning who the gatekeepers are. Again when I was a labourer, so long as you did your job to a high standard and were willing to go the extra mile to get a job completed the boss usually loved you (affection was paid in beer). I think here I will need to develop a radar for people who are out to protect their kingdoms.

I am sorry for blowing off on this forum but I had recently been bidding for funding for a training project that I had been pushing for for some time. I picked up the internal newsletter and saw that another group (in conjunction with the organization that had previously fucked me on the student centre) had just been approved for the very same project (what a fucking miraculous coincedence). In fairness this could be a coincedence, but I got pissed off, hit the bottle and then the keyboard.

The question I have is this. What happens when the "Idea stealers" who have never had an original idea of their own, and subsequently survive by stealing other peoples ideas, drive away all the "Idea creators" and are left to fend for themselves. Has the university not considered this as they stand by and ignore this obvious problem? Again I am not the only one this happens to.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[sdctlc 0]

I agree. I was in a Grad program and ended up leaving with a M.S. after battling with my Proff. It was not good. Politics suck, people out for themselves and expecting you to slave away for 20 hours a day (lab work) and have not a bit of "me" time. Anyway. Academics is a "publish or perish" society till your tenured and even then depending on how the money flow (hard or soft) is set up you still have to watch yourself. Academia is filled with sharks and I after talking to Grad students in different institutions find a good % with bad experiences like I had. You make the best of it, get through it and get out. Some love it and others don’t, I did not like the BS and I am in my field but not actively doing the research BS.

Good luck
Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"