Homeowners' Associations

[Airman1270 0]

The thread about new construction reminded me... Every time I see new housing construction, it's always one of these cookie-cutter neighborhoods with the restrictive covenants and the busybody homeowners associations goose stepping over their neighbors' property rights, trying to micro-manage the color of the mailboxes, whether you can change your spark plugs while parked in your driveway, demanding permission before you cut down a tree, etc. You know the drill.

My question: Why do people want to live like this?

In my lowly life as pizza guy scum, I see many of these homes, built very close to each other, and always with these "covenant" signs posted at the entrance to the community. Meanwhile, for a fraction of the price, I have a nice house in a nice neighborhood, built about 30 years ago, with plenty of trees and ample space between homes, near the interstate, with NO homeowners association trying to make our lives a living hell. Yet, I'm sure the people I'm delivering to will tell you that their homes are more valuable, more desirable, etc.

What is the attraction? And if you support this concept, what part of your life is so fragile that you'll unravel at the seams if your neighbor installs a bright blue mailbox, or parks an unused car on the side of his garage for months at a time? And, part of the original question, why is there not a corresponding boom in new housing construction that does NOT require covenants, etc.? Your thoughts?

Cheers,
Jon S.

[NWFlyer 2]

I can't imagine a direction this conversation will take that won't send it to Speakers' Corner, but what the hell, I'm not afraid of SC.
I have no interest in living like that. I do actually belong to a HOA, but that is because I live in a four-plex townhouse complex that has very limited shared space, so we have to function as a condo association. That's different, however, from what you're talking about - we're in the middle of an in-city neighborhood, we have no gates, no real covenants (though with the way the units are constructed, there is probably some benefit to maintaining uniformity). We're completely chill about how we run our HOA and don't stress too much about "rules."

I don't understand the appeal of gated communities or communities with strict covenants. I do understand the appeal of new construction. Though I like the charm of older houses, I do not have the time/patience/skill to maintain one. I have a friend who recently moved and in his target cities, the only newer construction available was in gated communities. He ended up buying in one, but it wasn't his first choice.

Personally, I think gated communities are a subtle way to discriminate. It's a way to ensure that people who are at all "different" don't fit in, and therefore, don't choose to live there. It doesn't run afoul of any fair housing laws because all they're doing is "enforcing the covenants." I'm sure not all gated communities are like this, of course. I also think gated communities give people a false sense of security. Very few of them are "secure" in any meaningful way, but there's an idea that if you can keep the riff-raff out, your life will be safer. And by riff-raff, it usually means "people who are not like us."

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[skymama 37]

I live in one of those neighborhoods. In my situation, I had very little to choose from. There is hardly any land left in my county to build on, most of it has been bought up by production home builders that build these subdivisions. I work for my dad who builds custom homes. If we could have found affordable land around here, he could have built me a house at cost.

Even the older subdivisions from as far back as the 80's have HOA's here. Being a single woman, I'm not in the position to take care of things breaking down in my house like I would have gotten if I had purchased an older home. A new home with warranties was perfect for me. No, I don't like the HOA, I've already had problems with them concerning a basketball hoop, but there are some things in life you just have to put up with.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[simplyputsi 0]

My opinion is that HOA's suck but are neccessary evils sometimes. Such as mine since I live in a Condo. For houses though I think some of it is just getting out of hand. My parents can't park their nice and clean boat in their driveway because of some stupid rule. If there was no HOA for them they could put a pool in their backyard if so inclined. Since there are 2 pools for the subdivision though no one else can have an inground pool. WTF??? What sense does that make.
They don't pay much, and what they pay goes to the pool and tennis courts and they little bit of landscaping done.
I particulary would like to find a house that isn't part of this crap. Those are few and far between here in the Atlanta area.

Skymama's #2 stalker -

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Every time I see new housing construction, it's always one of these cookie-cutter neighborhoods with the restrictive covenants and the busybody homeowners associations goose stepping over their neighbors' property rights, trying to micro-manage the color of the mailboxes, whether you can change your spark plugs while parked in your driveway, demanding permission before you cut down a tree, etc. You know the drill.

My question: Why do people want to live like this?

Has anyone here had that neighbor who refused to take any care of the yard?
Has anyone here had that neighbor with a dilapidated jalopy of a car leaking oil in a slow line down the driveway?
Has anyone here had that neighbor whose house is painted a vomit green color so as to make it an eyesore?
Has anyone here ever had that neighbor whose house looks like a crack den/

If so, you and the neighborhood get mad because that asshole neighbor's lack of care for the house just dropped your property value by $30k. You need to sell your house to relocate for that new job, and you can't get good money for it because nobody wants to live NEAR that house.

That's why CC&R's are there. All it takes is for one butthole to screw up an otherwise nice neighborhood, and the HOA is the policing authority. People like that. In today's, "Can't someone else do it?" mentality, they'd rather cut their rights in half and pay someone else to confront the neighbor about the distinct sights, sounds and aromas of "Sanford & Son" coming from the neighbor's property.

I personally talk to my neighbors about my displeaures. Why hire someone to make my point when I can tell my neighbor (as I did just yesterday), "Your dogs barking at 4:00 in the afternoon? No problem. 6:00? No problem? Your dogs barign for an hour straight at 4:00? Problem. Your fucking dogs barking at 10:30 at night and waking up my wife and 20 month old son, well, that is a BIG FUCKING problem, and if you don't rectify it, I will."

Let the HOA do it? And me miss out on my opportunity to vent? Forget that.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[PhreeZone 20]

I wish there was something like a HOA in place where I have my house. Down the street there is a house that is up to 4 non-operational cars in various parts in their driveway. They have collections of car parts just laying around outside. Their lawn is yet to be mowed this year since they can't get the mower out due to the cars and parts. Their trees and bushes have not been trimmed in years I guess. Their lawn is so full of weeds that for 4 houes in each direction it looks like someone painted their lawn yellow with all the dandilions in the yard. Can't kill them since they keep coming from this one yard. The grass and weeds are over 6 inches tall last time I looked.

Their driveway is asphalt and is actually sinking into the yard and has never been recoated in the 11 years the house was built. Their wooden fence is actually leaning at about a 30 degree angle at a few points but they don't care. The neighbors tried to sell last year but could'nt get a buyer even under market value since no one wants to live next to this dump of a house. They bought it in the mid 90's for like 75k and the rest of the neighborhood it up to the 130-140k but the houses on each side of it will never get close to that until the property is cleaned up. There is nothing the city can do since they move the cars the required 12 inches when ever they get called on it to avoid fines.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[sharimcm 0]

My ex's way of "getting back" at the HOA after we received a postcard stating we had runners only two weeks after we moved in, then another saying there was an unauthorized vehicle in our DRIVEWAY, was to pour $25.00 worth of pennies in their night drop slot. I thought he was crazy, and I did take pics... About a month after that, they put a sign on their night drop that said, "NO COIN."

"I had a dude tip his black cowboy hat to me after I provided him with a condom outside my hotel room at 3-something in the morning." -myself

[Airman1270 0]

The serious points you make can be addressed in most neighborhoods, HOA's or not. It was my understanding that most local governments have mechanisms to deal with such violations.

But whose life, property values, etc. are at risk because the neighbor is working on his car, in his driveway, on Saturday afternoon? How is your life affected if I hang a sheet over my living room window, allow guests to park in the street, or paint my mailbox a different color than yours?

If I wish to park an unused car on my property, why is this perfectly okay if I maintain registration & insurance, but an "eyesore" if I don't?

Regarding lawns: It seems sometimes that the guy who turns his lawn into a passionate hobby, constantly raking, mowing, etc. is the unofficial standard to which the rest of us are expected to strive; and, if we dont, are considered "irresponsible." I don't play that game.

I clean up my yard once or twice a year and cut the grass several times each season. It gets tall, I cut it. It gets tall again, I eventually cut it. It never gets out of hand, unless you describe tall grass as "out of hand." Neither is it ignored for months at a time. I suppose a HOA might get its panties in a wad, but nobody else is affected.

NWFlyer was right. Perhaps this should have been in SC. I had no idea that might be the case. Live & learn...

Cheers,
Jon

[eeneR 3]

My reason. I am in a condo, I have 15 other units in my building. Without HOA there is nothing setting rules for who does what. Also, I do not want to do yard work, or shovel at all. HOA takes care of that too.

It is a personal choice, some people want less to deal with the maint, while others want to do it. I have also owned a house with out an HOA. I prefer turnkey living, I dont want to drop 150k and then have all the crap break. Everything in my place is brand spanking new, and covered for 2 years by builder, then it goes to mfr warrentee.

In the area I live in housing can be expensive as hell, Im single and living alone which means single income. Most houses are going for 200k and up. I cannot afford that on my own.

What is a good choice for one person may not be the right choice for someone else.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[Zipp0 1]

Busy-body neighbors are the devil incarnate and should be exterminated with extreme predjudice. It's my house, so keep your nosy ass outta my business or I'll cut it off.

Needless to say - no CC&R or HOA where I live. If the widow Johnson told me she was reporting me for parking my boat in the driveway, or whatever else, she would be joining her husband post haste.

Zipp0

--------------------------
Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down.

[JohnRich 4]

I just got a note from my HOA warning me about a bare spot in my front yard, and "mold" growing on the side of my brick. The mold is actually sort of a bathtub ring, from where rain splashes up from my driveway onto the brick.

Here's my response:

I am in receipt of your letter dated March 24, requesting that I remove mold from the side of my house, and that I plant grass in a bare spot in my front yard.

First of all, I do all that each year, and much more, during my normal course of home maintenance. I don’t need you to remind me.

Second, I’m sure you’ve heard of the phrase “spring cleaning”. Well, spring began just four days prior to your letter, and the weather has often been too cold previously to work with water. So your suggestion to power-wash the mold is premature: you haven’t allowed enough time for me to rectify this problem during the normal course of events, prior to your notice.

Third, and likewise, the same untimely notice applies for the grass problem. I can’t grow grass in the winter, only in the spring. So your notice arrived prior to the time when I’ve even had a chance to do anything about it. Oh, and the covenants don’t say that the yard has to have grass – only that it has to be “attractive”. Since attempts to grow grass there have failed about three years in a row now, perhaps I’ll plant a rock garden.

Finally, leave me the heck alone and these items will be taken care of – not because you’ve told me to do so, but because I do them on my own each year anyway. I don’t respond kindly to threats, especially those that are made before the normal time of year when work is done to resolve such problems. It’s like criticizing someone for not washing the dishes, before they’ve even finished eating dinner.

[PhreeZone 20]

Is it out of hand when small animals are making it their home since it offers such good cover for them?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

The serious points you make can be addressed in most neighborhoods, HOA's or not. It was my understanding that most local governments have mechanisms to deal with such violations.

This is true. I spoke to neighbor yesterday after I called the cops on him on Saturday night for letting his dogs bark outside at 10:20 at night. I was in the backyard with my son and every time the dog would bark he'd clap his hands and say,"Shhh." This was at 5:00 yesterday afternoon. SO I laid the rules down.

Unfortuantely, people have given the role of normal human relations to an HOA. While police and code enforcement are there to help, it's still a situation where other problems need to be brought up between neighbors.

HOA's, while having a good reason to start, are falling victim to the law of unintended consequences.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[livendive 8]

Quote

I spoke to neighbor yesterday after I called the cops on him on Saturday night for letting his dogs bark outside at 10:20 at night.
...
Unfortuantely, people have given the role of normal human relations to an HOA. While police and code enforcement are there to help, it's still a situation where other problems need to be brought up between neighbors.

Did you talk to him before you called the cops on him?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Quote

I spoke to neighbor yesterday after I called the cops on him on Saturday night for letting his dogs bark outside at 10:20 at night.
...
Unfortuantely, people have given the role of normal human relations to an HOA. While police and code enforcement are there to help, it's still a situation where other problems need to be brought up between neighbors.

Did you talk to him before you called the cops on him?

Blues,
Dave

Yep. I actually went to his house when my yelling to bring the dogs in didn't work (he lives behind me, so I had to go for about 1/4 mile around the block) and knocked on the door. Three times. This at 10:25 p.m. They wouldn't answer, and the dogs kept barking. I did see through their door that the husband was occasionally peering from behind a corner.

So, time to call the cops. This was a problem las summer that I thought my previous discussion with him had rectified. Apparently, he forgot, so I called the cops when they wouldn't even answer the door.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Yep. I actually went to his house when my yelling to bring the dogs in didn't work (he lives behind me, so I had to go for about 1/4 mile around the block) and knocked on the door. Three times. This at 10:25 p.m. They wouldn't answer, and the dogs kept barking. I did see through their door that the husband was occasionally peering from behind a corner.

So, time to call the cops. This was a problem las summer that I thought my previous discussion with him had rectified. Apparently, he forgot, so I called the cops when they wouldn't even answer the door.

Cool. Sounds like you did it just right, and calling the cops helped too.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[The111 1]

In my area, as others have said, there aren't many choices. Hell, I can't even afford to own ANY sort of real estate in a decent part of town relatively close to my job, so I rent. And I don't make horrible money.

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And if you support this concept, what part of your life is so fragile that you'll unravel at the seams if your neighbor installs a bright blue mailbox, or parks an unused car on the side of his garage for months at a time?

A simplistic, somewhat humorous potential explanation. My dad says "old people move here (to FL) to retire, make new rules in their HOA, and then die." The people making the rules are the ones going to the meeting and stuff who care about that kind of stuff. The people who don't want rules, maybe aren't going and speaking up. I'm guessing here.

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And, part of the original question, why is there not a corresponding boom in new housing construction that does NOT require covenants, etc.? Your thoughts?

I wonder the same thing. In one final attempt to move this to SC, here is my answer - Americans are stupid, and getting stupider.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[skygazer 0]

My house is located in an older area also, we pretty much mind our own biz and people take care of their property,

A friend of mine built a new home in one of these huge new subdivisions. They moved in and proudly put out one of those decorative flagpole with the stars and stripes. Next day they received a order from the committee that no flags were allowed, not even the US flag. My friend told them to fuck off, come and take it down if they had the balls. It made the local papers. Needless to say the flag is still there and the association turned their attention to annoying someone else.

_______________________________________

[TrophyHusband 0]

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In my lowly life as pizza guy scum, I see many of these homes, built very close to each other,

i don't understand this either. i live in the middle of the fucking desert between boise and twin falls with nothing but open spaces for miles and the majority of the lots in town are 1/5 of an acre or smaller. that is so small the with a slight breeze you can acually piss into your neighbor's yard from your back door. we ended up purchasing a house on an acre of land and an hoa. the covenant has the typical rules about parking boats and rv's in your driveway, but in the summer everyone keeps their toys in the driveway and the hoa doesn't fuck with anybody.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[lawrocket 3]

In California, there's actually "The California Association of Homeowner's Associations." Can you imagine the squabbles over rules in getting anything done on that?

As far as why developers would want it, it appears that "common interest developments" are less prone to crime and decay. Builders like them because they can show homes they built 30 year ago still looking good, which is like built-in advertising.

It also does stuff to keep renters in check. The bane of any HOA is rental property. Renters typically don't care much about keeping a property nice. And renters can lower home values.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Quote

In my lowly life as pizza guy scum, I see many of these homes, built very close to each other,

i don't understand this either. i live in the middle of the fucking desert between boise and twin falls with nothing but open spaces for miles and the majority of the lots in town are 1/5 of an acre or smaller.

This is my take on the situation.

When I lived in Florida, we had fairly big lots, about 1/3 acre, and plenty of room between homes. That was because the city had zoning laws which designated how many homes per acre a developer could build. Thus, they were restricted as to how small they could make them.

When I moved to Texas, however, I was amazed that in the land where everything was supposed to be huge, the typical home lot size is just a tiny 1/5 acre. Turns out, that's because there is no city/county zoning laws designating how many homes are allowed per acre. Thus, a developer can maximize his profit by buying a tract of land and then jamming as many homes as possible together inside it. A side effect of this is that the homes cost less for the buyer, because not as much value is tied up in the land.

So it's all the presence or absence of zoning laws, and economics for the developer.

[L.O. 0]

I read these posts and I feel pity for most. I live on 10As of mostly trees, surrounded by 100As of trees. One house about 200yrds through the trees, 9 miles from the DZ. Our house is old, but built like a brick s%^t house and kept up well with new wiring, plumbing, heating and A/C. It took us a while to find it, but we felt we needed to, so we could raise a family in peace. We can walk around naked at will. We can do anything, even let the kids play in the street if we wanted. It is bliss, but we gave up a lot to have it this way.

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[TrophyHusband 0]

that's similar to how i grew up, and hopefully i can eventually have a place like that.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[skycat 0]

My part of the subdivision doesn't have an HOA while all the ones to the south of us do. It's the oldest section and I guess was built before they were the fad. I'm lucky everyone has cute front porches and well cared for front yards, it's a quiet young family neighbor hood.

Now my neighbor behind me would be a prime target of an HOA, their house hasn't been painted in 20 years and the roof is missing a ton of shingles. I can tell they have done no maintenance to the outside by the fact that the fence between our yards was falling over and the propped it back up with a shovel. Luckily my dogs weren't interested in visiting because the shovel wouldn't have kept them out.

The new construction in Denver is out of hand in both the amount and the prices for the homes. Right now 1 in 300 homes in Denver is foreclosure while the national average is 1 in 1200. I believe it considering of all the house I looked at (20+) only 2 were owned by a person rather than a bank. I heard on the radio that several of the new home builders are currently offering $50K worth of incentives to buy their over priced new homes.

Fly it like you stole it!