The use of mesh in jumpsuits...

[denete 3]

Hi. As I've recently discovered, I'm a fast faller (thanks to physics and my physical size).

I've noticed a few jumpsuit designs that utilize mesh to allow air pressure to "puff up" the suit and increase surface area. Are there any potential down-sides to this? Would it be better to just get a big jumpsuit?

I'm trying to figure the difference between the drag from collapsed flapping fabric, and taught fabric.

Anyhow, thanks for any theoretical (or real) feedback.

- David

[darkwing 5]

It has been done many times over the years, beginning in the 1970's, if not earlier. The down sides include: difficult to grip an inflated suit and uneven inflation. I think the reason they haven't been more popular is the downsides are not worth the tradeoff usually. Better to just get a big/multi-layer jumpsuit. BTW, how tall are you and how much do you weigh?

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[denete 3]

6' 1" @ 230 lbs.

[ In a 2-way dock (2-way star?) with a coach who is much lighter than I, his Neptune recorded 143 mph. ]

- David

[darkwing 5]

Heck, I weigh the same and am 4 inches shorter, so you'd float on me. Just consult with a good jumpsuit mfr and get a good suit. I recommend Bev suits, but there are other good ones. Any reputable mfr should be able to make a suit for you. I don't have any mesh, and I recommend against swoop cords. I have actually cut down the extra fabric that came originally with my jumpsuit.

Also, you may be arching too much.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[DougH 270]

In my honest opinion you really aren't that heavy for being 6 foot tall.

I fell fast when I first started jumping. I was 190 lbs and 5'6. Once I got more experience my flying style evolved and I slowed down drastically.

I do have a tony suit with mega booties that have the inflatable vents. There are no real down sides to having them once you learn how to fly the big booties. I don't know if they really slow you down, I think they help, but they don't have any negatives aside from the extra expense.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[riggerrob 643]

Straight booties (no vents) help slow my slowest fall rate by about 5 miles per hour.

[Armour666 0]

I'm 5'5 190 and when first jumped was falling at the high 130's now with some coaching and a few new tricks, and a Polycotten jump suit with booties I can slow it down to around 112-116 on a regular basis took some time and practice and I know if I keep it up I can do it everytime.

SO this one time at band camp.....

"Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most."

[rehmwa 2]

mesh, cords, afterburners, etc = nutty little gimmicks that hurt your ability to fly a suit. Snake oil sales, if you ask me.

I hear tie dye will make one a better flyer too

I'm not a fan of flapping fabric either and would rather see double layers of material. But for some people (I don't think your height/weight puts you in this "has to do extra stuff" range) it might be needed. Their performance will suffer, but they might not care if they aren't after super good control. It comes down to going from flying your body - to flying the suit.

I'll send you a link to a description of what my wife does with a suit for fast fallers. It can be a good set of features for your discussion with the builder of your next suit.

Certain body positions are more effective than the "beach ball" thing. A good mantis wind tunnel camp will do wonders for fall range on both ends. You are just starting and haven't even begun to explore your full fall rate range. Get the training.

The bigger the bootie is good for both drag and performance, extra big grippers and having them everywhere is good. Note both of those add drag but ALSO serve a function.

I always wonder why some suitmakers continue to use spandex sides in a big-guy suit? It makes it easier to get the suit to fit, but on a big guy that can also be done with a loose fit and no spandex.

3 kinds of drag -

1 - skin drag - material type can have some effect, (choose polycotton over slippery nylon) - it's not huge, but helps for drag and won't hurt for performance

2 - functional drag - adding material that also is used for flying - pick mega booties over recreational booties (shoe covers), bigger grippers, get double grippers and inside leg grippers instead of not, etc. This is the best kind of drag.

3 - sloppy drag - flapping, loose, excess materials that sheds vortices and adds instability to your airflow. (gimmicks, sleeve covers, things that inflate when you don't want them to, just TOO LOOSE of a fit, etc) - hate to resort to this, but some people might have to also, especially if they aren't willing to put in the time to learn other techniques, or if they are primarily "fun jumpers" and they and their jumping partners don't care 'as much' about performance - and nothing is wrong with that! different strokes.



These are just opinions. But I've seen it in action. In the end, if it works for you, it works for you.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,147]

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mesh, cords, afterburners, etc = nutty little gimmicks that hurt your ability to fly a suit. Snake oil sales, if you ask me.

....

3 - sloppy drag - flapping, loose, excess materials that sheds vortices and adds instability to your airflow. (gimmicks, sleeve covers, things that inflate when you don't want them to, just TOO LOOSE of a fit, etc) - hate to resort to this, but some people might have to also, especially if they aren't willing to put in the time to learn other techniques, or if they are primarily "fun jumpers" and they and their jumping partners don't care 'as much' about performance - and nothing is wrong with that! different strokes.

I think your view is narrow because you mostly do 4-way.

I've been on 120+ ways where I was wearing 10 pounds of lead, and others where I wore a tee shirt over my jumpsuit. If you dock on the outside of a big-way you have to be able to deal with some huge extremes of fall rate. Cords and sleeves and webbed gloves are very commonly used to deal comfortably with the large formation that slows to 105mph.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bob.dino 1]

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In my honest opinion you really aren't that heavy for being 6 foot tall.

Unless he's a body-builder, 230lb is a lot for that height.

Remwha's comments are the ones I'd run with.

[denete 3]

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body-builder

Ha ha ha ho heh...


Um...no.

[rehmwa 2]

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I think your view is narrow because you mostly do 4-way.

You have never spent a whole weekend jumping with me. So I wonder how you know? But, 4-way is my favorite, when it's fast.

I 'mostly' do whatever size formation presents itself with new jumpers: also freeflying: also CrW: also formation load dives: also whatever

I'm lucky enough to have had some good coaching in the tunnel from some excellent 4-way pros. This has provided me with a really good 'range' in fallrate. I've yet to feel required on big ways to either add weight or 'gimmick' drag.

But if I needed to, I would. (I agree that you do whatever is needed to make the formation fall rate, "comfortably" in the middle of your personal fall rate)

Note I did clearly say "hate to resort to this, but some people might have to also"

I don't see what's so "narrow" minded about that statement. It just means I prioritize smooth airflow over turbulent.

So, if someone wants to go straight to mesh or swoop cords, I'll ask them to FIRST consider, double material, bigger booties, big grippers, more effective body positions. Exhaust those options first. Then, if still needed, they can go gimmick crazy.

(BTW - Kallend is a regular on the big way circuit and really knows his stuff - so I won't say his view is narrow because he mainly does big ways. So the point here is really if the OP is looking for a slow suit and technique for everyday jumps, or needs a bag of extra 'tricks' to handle special situations, like a 120+ way.......)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DougH 270]

Why would inflatabile booties create any more turbulence then the same sized booties with no vent?

The booties on my tonysuit stay nice and tight as well as inflating evenly. They aren't a hindrence at all as far as I can tell, they just ensure that the booties stay as big as they can when they are extended out into the relative wind.

This isn't a huge x-wing suit, it is a small bit of mesh and a small zp pocket on the inside of bootie.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[rehmwa 2]

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Why would inflatabile booties create any more turbulence then the same sized booties with no vent?

actually, there's an answer for that, but I'm sure it's a neglible effect for the flying you and I do


I'm glad they work for you for the type of jumping you prefer. I think Tony (and Bev) has a great suit design. (I'm a BIG fan of Mich's and own a Tetris, BTW - it's my other suit, no vents, no cords, just a great suit that helps me fly)

I've also seen people suddenly tossed tail end over due to vents, afterburners, etc. Those types of features (vents, a/bs, swoop cords) are less about turbulence and more about sporadic control of the feature.

The turbulence comment is mostly aimed at extra loose flapping material like sleeves, too loose fit, sloppy big legs on a cuffed suit vs choosing a mega-bootie, etc. Exercise - Go freefly in a big loose suit from 10 years ago. Then freefly in a smooter, Supplex freefly suit that fits tighter. Then freefly in a form fitting suit. You'll progress from "flying the suit" to flying your body. More and more each step.

You want a nice smooth big bootie? point your toes (on a correctly size bootie - not too loose) It that's too much trouble, I guess I'd take a bootie stiffener (like on the Tetris) than a vent. again, your mileage may vary. In the end, it's whatever the skydiver feels they need? then that's what they need.

{{{IMHO}}} "pockets" are nice for holding rubber bands, pullup cords, jump tickets, and sunglasses - your mileage may vary

disclaimer - I'm just some guy with an aerospace degree and 4-way obsession that thinks suits, and their recent evolutions, are neat. I like to discuss features, etc because it provides insight into how I fly and use my working surfaces. I have opinions, likely 90% are wrong. But the discussions are fun and educational. Anyone second guessing their purchases or feels a need to defend their choices should consider buying an ice cream sandwich and taking a break - not necessarily directed at Doug, but some people really do get upset when another has any opinions or thoughts, so I thought I'd head off that issue right here, just in case. Do not swim for one half hour after digesting my posts, do not operate heavy machinery, oily staining is known to occur in test subjects, not valid in New Jersey or Ohio, settling of contents occurs during shipment.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[DougH 270]

Mmmmmmmmmmmm icecream!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[denete 3]

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I'm just some guy with an aerospace degree and 4-way obsession that thinks suits, and their recent evolutions, are neat. I like to discuss features, etc because it provides insight into how I fly and use my working surfaces. I have opinions, likely 90% are wrong. But the discussions are fun and educational.

Well, if you enjoy evolution and think the discussions are fun and educational, here's an idea to ponder.

Swoop cords for your feet.

It could be that this has already been tried. It may have no benefit. Whatever...here goes. Wearing a suit that has normal booties, you also have a swoop cord arrangement that goes from your heel to your hip. It has to have some elasticity in order to allow your legs to go straight, but when bent upward it stretches the back of the suit's legs to form a gusset from your butt to your foot. When adding that to your booties, you now have created a pretty sizable control surface (a classic parallelogram that has been skewed...unless your feet are as long as your thigh). Because it is "fixed" at one end (your butt), spreading your knees apart and touching your feet together will give you wicked fast front loops without a tucked body position.

Anyhow, all of this came up after seeing the Brandi Belt from FliteSuit, and thinking about how a similar system might work that connected swoop cords from your hands to your feet (marionette-style).

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[mnealtx 0]

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and thinking about how a similar system might work that connected swoop cords from your hands to your feet (marionette-style).

Rocky the Flying Squirrel!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[denete 3]

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Rocky the Flying Squirrel!!

Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.

[mnealtx 0]

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Rocky the Flying Squirrel!!

Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat heheheheheheh.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706