mirage62 0
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QuoteHey Dave, please tell me that every hook turn accident you have seen, you describe the canopy pilot as an "asshole" It drives me freak'n crazy when people are irresponible, especially while skydiving.
Just about every "hook turn" accident I've seen its made me mad to a point. I've seen more panic toggle low turns then anything though. When its a low time jumper it makes me sad and a bit upset at the training recieved (or what they withheld from the training).
There's a serious difference between someone making a mistake undercanopy, in a car or on a bike while performing a function that is normal and safe (or considered safe) and someone racing at a high rate of speed in an uncontroled roadway with no safety protection at all. Beyond that, it makes my motorcycle insurance go up.
So you think it was perfectly ok for this guy to be traveling WELL above a residential speedlimit, to the point that he couldn't navigate a turn, while not wearing a helmet or other safety gear then to put his son and OrangeJumper in the position that they're in now? If so, good on ya, go do whatever it is you like to do and be happy, but I will stand in disagreement with you for your opinion in this matter.
Its very possible that PTSD will set in for OrangeJumper, if thats the case it can be something that will be life altering. If he's able to watch for the symptoms and go get some help, then he'll be able to alleviate most of it. I've been there, I've been effected by it and it changes your life.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
I will be fine (no issues with PTSD) but I do appreciate the concern. I don't have a problem with gore, I've seen much worse as a military medic.
Like I said before, I just feel so badly for his family. I can't even imagine someone telling me that something like that happened to my wife.
The Original Cabana Boy!
Like I said before, I just feel so badly for his family. I can't even imagine someone telling me that something like that happened to my wife.
The Original Cabana Boy!
QuoteI will be fine (no issues with PTSD) but I do appreciate the concern. I don't have a problem with gore, I've seen much worse as a military medic.
That's good it won't effect you. Some people are effected by things that seem small to others, but its a big deal to them.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
mirage62 0
Hi Dave,
Thanks I appreciate your concern, and your right PTSD is a bitch and could be caused just as easily watching and hearing a swoop gone bad as watching a bike accident. I have seen many of both and hope to never see either again.
I'm sorry are you saying a hook turn gone bad is normally safe? As in riding around a turn at 80 mph is always going to cause an accident? Unless you have additional information as to the cause of this accident that wasn't given you don't know the cause of the accident. Just as when someone hooks in you may not know what caused the accident.
That's my point, do you think it is perfectly okay for someone to hook w/o a helmet, that at x mph winds to still down wind a swoop? If they do break one of your rules do you award them the asshole award?
Do I wish he hadn't had the accident - yes
Do I wish he had worn a helmet - yes
Do I know if there was gravel in the road-no
Should he have been going that fast - no
Does that make him an - "asshole" in your book yes
And that my friend is what makes this a great country. Your welcome to your thoughts and I mine. For me to cast a blanket "asshole" without knowing a lot more details is out of my realm, but your comfortable with it - so "good on ya"
Be safe riding and jumping.
Thanks I appreciate your concern, and your right PTSD is a bitch and could be caused just as easily watching and hearing a swoop gone bad as watching a bike accident. I have seen many of both and hope to never see either again.
Quote
There's a serious difference between someone making a mistake undercanopy, in a car or on a bike while performing a function that is normal and safe (or considered safe)
I'm sorry are you saying a hook turn gone bad is normally safe? As in riding around a turn at 80 mph is always going to cause an accident? Unless you have additional information as to the cause of this accident that wasn't given you don't know the cause of the accident. Just as when someone hooks in you may not know what caused the accident.
Quote
So you think it was perfectly ok for this guy to be traveling WELL above a residential speedlimit, to the point that he couldn't navigate a turn, while not wearing a helmet or other safety gear
That's my point, do you think it is perfectly okay for someone to hook w/o a helmet, that at x mph winds to still down wind a swoop? If they do break one of your rules do you award them the asshole award?
Do I wish he hadn't had the accident - yes
Do I wish he had worn a helmet - yes
Do I know if there was gravel in the road-no
Should he have been going that fast - no
Does that make him an - "asshole" in your book yes
Quote
If so, good on ya, go do whatever it is you like to do and be happy, but I will stand in disagreement with you for your opinion in this matter.
And that my friend is what makes this a great country. Your welcome to your thoughts and I mine. For me to cast a blanket "asshole" without knowing a lot more details is out of my realm, but your comfortable with it - so "good on ya"
Be safe riding and jumping.
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little
QuoteUnless you have additional information as to the cause of this accident that wasn't given you don't know the cause of the accident.
QuoteAs in riding around a turn at 80 mph is always going to cause an accident?
Failure to control speed is failure to control speed, it doesn't matter if there was some gravel on the road that caused him to ditch the bike. Its a factor that may or may not have contributed, since an eye witness stated that the bike was traveling at a high rate of speed. The inability to navigate a turn is typically failure to control speed. You don't even have to be speeding, you can be within the speed limit, but in conditions unsafe for the speed in which you were traveling. For instance, with this case, if the guy has been doing the speed limit and had dumped his bike due to a wet road. That could still be failure to control speed (or speeding unsafe for conditions).
This is something that sounds to be like reckless driving. The same applies for swoopers that are reckless with their swooping. Into traffic, through traffic, etc.
QuoteI'm sorry are you saying a hook turn gone bad is normally safe?
Nope. I said it is considered safe, not that it IS safe, it fully isn't. Just like driving a car isn't safe nor is riding a motorcycle, but people consider those activities, when performed correctly and within the limits of the law, safe. Look at the pro swoopers. Do you consider them to be flying their canopies at the edge of performance, but as safely as they can? Do you see them making reckless judgement mistakes? Did I say that a low turn was normally safe? Show me where I said just that. You can't because its not there, I never said it.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
bmcd308 0
Guys, remember where this took place. When I go to the dz, I know that I am subjecting myself to maybe seeing someone go in.
If this had happened at the track or on the set of a movie where the stunt was to have a guy go fast with no helmet, it would be different.
Brent
----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com
If this had happened at the track or on the set of a movie where the stunt was to have a guy go fast with no helmet, it would be different.
Brent
----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com
This is sickening and inexcusable.. He made a number of very stupid decisions... No helmet... bad [IMHO] but only likely to damage himself.. Rideing at speed in a built up are - Fucking Stupid.. anyone else could have been hurt and that's indefensible.
Like others' I'm sorry that you had to see that... no one should have to
.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
Like others' I'm sorry that you had to see that... no one should have to
.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
mirage62 0
my quote
"I'm sorry are you saying a hook turn gone bad is normally safe?"
Your reply
"Show me where I said just that. You can't because its not there, I never said it."
I'm sure you saw my question mark, but I was trying to understand your statement.
You failed to answer my orginal question. Do call swoopers who are killed "assholes" routinely? That in it's entirety was my basic problem. Heck man for all I know you do, I mean that. You may have the mind set that says "If someone does something dumb that could effect other people they are an asshole"
The "asshole" comment seemed a little strong for me and I was drawing a comparison with swooping gone bad.
I've been riding for over 20 yrs and jumping for 10. Everyone screws up, I'm hoping that we all are titled "asshole" when we do.
But hey, you can call me an asshole for having that view
"I'm sorry are you saying a hook turn gone bad is normally safe?"
Your reply
"Show me where I said just that. You can't because its not there, I never said it."
I'm sure you saw my question mark, but I was trying to understand your statement.
You failed to answer my orginal question. Do call swoopers who are killed "assholes" routinely? That in it's entirety was my basic problem. Heck man for all I know you do, I mean that. You may have the mind set that says "If someone does something dumb that could effect other people they are an asshole"
The "asshole" comment seemed a little strong for me and I was drawing a comparison with swooping gone bad.
I've been riding for over 20 yrs and jumping for 10. Everyone screws up, I'm hoping that we all are titled "asshole" when we do.
But hey, you can call me an asshole for having that view
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little
My two cents: the motorcyclist was putting others and their property at risk. He qualified himself as an asshole.
Walt
Walt
QuoteThe "asshole" comment seemed a little strong for me and I was drawing a comparison with swooping gone bad.
I think its a bad comparison. There's a serious difference between doing something under more controlled conditions and doing something extreme in the "real world." You can understand that as a rider, I would hope. There's the track and there's the street. Pushing your limits on the track is one thing, if you crash, that sucks. If you're killed or hurt. That really sucks. However, you were doing your thing in a controlled environment.
I would really hope you don't condone someone riding at such a high rate of speed in a residental area. And yes, I think someone doing something like that is an assshole. Selfishly putting everyone around them at risk of death, injury and mental distress.
I also include in my "asshole list of riders" riders who do stunt riding on public roads (regardless if of what kind of bike they're on...I saw a HD Deuce pulling really good balanced wheelies a while back...still an asshole).
Now, back to this:
QuoteYou failed to answer my orginal question. Do call swoopers who are killed "assholes" routinely?
A swooper who is someone who has the skill, experience and time to swoop safely that just screws up? That's a mistake, that sucks.
A "swooper" who is someone going too hard, too fast and ignoring all the advice from people around him/her to slow down, upsize or stop that activity all together that fraps in? That's an asshole.
Notice the use of quotation marks.
Can you see my point of view there?
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
Sorry, but I agree with Dave & Walt here.. I know everyone does daft things and makes mistakes.. But from what I read in the original post ... this guy was beyond reckless... I dont mind being proven wrong on this.
.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
.
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
MagicGuy 0
QuoteMy two cents: the motorcyclist was putting others and their property at risk. He qualified himself as an asshole.
Walt
Couldn't have said it better. He was certainly an asshole. Every time I see a motorcycle rider pulling wheelies on the highway, swerving in and out of traffic, especially with no helmet, they are immediately an asshole in my book.
Corazon 1
Sorry to hear that you had to see that hopefully in time the memories will fade.
You mentioned your wife was in the car when this happened, how is she doing?
hopefully in time the memories will fade.
You mentioned your wife was in the car when this happened, how is she doing?
Ashley Martin
"Corazon" Rodriguez
PMS #462
"Corazon" Rodriguez
PMS #462
mirage62 0
Hey Dave,
Yep, I can see your point. I'm trying to explain my point w/o being critical. The fact's as I read them is that this fellow made an mistake, a bad mistake and it cost him his life. But for me - and obviously not you (or others) it didn't seem to cross the "asshole" threshold. From what we k-n-o-w he got into a turn hot and laid it down. He wasn't doing a wheelie, or riding tricks. He was on a public road and he over estimated his skill level. He shouldn't have been going that fast but who of us that rides from time to time doesn't get on it, or into a turn faster than we "should"?
Perhaps you never have, I've never road with you. But I would guess that you have. And if I happened on a forum and someone who didn't know you said "he's and asshole" I would be equally upset. See they wouldn't know you or truely if you had earned the "asshole" award.
If your comment had been "he was riding like a real asshole" I'd never have taken the time to comment.
I haven't meet the swooper who through the learning curve doesn't come close to taking a really good lick - most take several and walk away. Sadly some don't. These people aren't assholes to me they just made a mistake.
I beleieve that your biggest problem with this guy was he was on the road and not at a race track-I can see that. Wish he hadn't done it.
So in closing, like I said earlier what a great country. We can all have our thoughts. It seems that by a count of replies - you win. A majority of replies agree with you. For myself I'd wait till I had a lot more facts. But that's just me.
Be safe and remembr to follow all the posted speed limite signs.
Yep, I can see your point. I'm trying to explain my point w/o being critical. The fact's as I read them is that this fellow made an mistake, a bad mistake and it cost him his life. But for me - and obviously not you (or others) it didn't seem to cross the "asshole" threshold. From what we k-n-o-w he got into a turn hot and laid it down. He wasn't doing a wheelie, or riding tricks. He was on a public road and he over estimated his skill level. He shouldn't have been going that fast but who of us that rides from time to time doesn't get on it, or into a turn faster than we "should"?
Perhaps you never have, I've never road with you. But I would guess that you have. And if I happened on a forum and someone who didn't know you said "he's and asshole" I would be equally upset. See they wouldn't know you or truely if you had earned the "asshole" award.
If your comment had been "he was riding like a real asshole" I'd never have taken the time to comment.
I haven't meet the swooper who through the learning curve doesn't come close to taking a really good lick - most take several and walk away. Sadly some don't. These people aren't assholes to me they just made a mistake.
I beleieve that your biggest problem with this guy was he was on the road and not at a race track-I can see that. Wish he hadn't done it.
So in closing, like I said earlier what a great country. We can all have our thoughts. It seems that by a count of replies - you win. A majority of replies agree with you. For myself I'd wait till I had a lot more facts. But that's just me.
Be safe and remembr to follow all the posted speed limite signs.
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little
DJL 235
70-80 mph in a residential zone is an asshole. I've gone 90mph in a residential 25 mph zone as a highschool kid in a 300ZX and I'd go back in time and kick my own ass if I could. Because he suffered the consequences doesn't make him any less negligent. He just happened to not kill someone else just like as I lost traction and skidded around that corner I happened to not have wrapped myself around that telephone pole or killed someone's Dad coming the other direction who was a merciful 10 seconds late driving home.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher
jdthomas 0
Saturday I worked a low speed motorcycle vs the earth crash and transported two. Back passenger leg was torn to the bone above knee and small road rash.
Drive had a bleed in his head and who knows where else. broken back and road rash like none other. No helmets and etoh plus they had been smoking pot!
Later that night we ran a hit and run or should I say hit and drug the drug dealer down the street call.
A drug deal gone bad turns into the drug dealer getting drug by an SUV about one block and then run over. he was a mess! large sack of bones but still alive.
Saturday was busy and I work in a small town, we had many other calls that night but those two are along the lines of what Orangejumper saw and all where dumb asses!
Joe
Drive had a bleed in his head and who knows where else. broken back and road rash like none other. No helmets and etoh plus they had been smoking pot!
Later that night we ran a hit and run or should I say hit and drug the drug dealer down the street call.
A drug deal gone bad turns into the drug dealer getting drug by an SUV about one block and then run over. he was a mess! large sack of bones but still alive.
Saturday was busy and I work in a small town, we had many other calls that night but those two are along the lines of what Orangejumper saw and all where dumb asses!
Joe
www.greenboxphotography.com
Gene03 0
So... what did you and the wife have for dinner?
“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.
Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)
Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)
QuoteSorry to hear that you had to see that
You mentioned your wife was in the car when this happened, how is she doing?
My wife is ok, she wouldn't even get out of the car. Thanks for asking!!!!
The Original Cabana Boy!
QuoteSo... what did you and the wife have for dinner?
Dude....believe it or not we went to a burger joint called Red Robin. Trust me, we couldn't believe we were actually eating hamburgers, especially me, after seeing that. What can I say, we were in the mood for a good o'l burger
The Original Cabana Boy!
Squeak 17
Quotemy quote
"I'm sorry are you saying a hook turn gone bad is normally safe?"
Your reply
"Show me where I said just that. You can't because its not there, I never said it."
I'm sure you saw my question mark, but I was trying to understand your statement.
You failed to answer my orginal question. Do call swoopers who are killed "assholes" routinely?
See I see 2 different discriptions here, Swooping and Hook turns?
It maybe semantics but I dont consider swooping a canopy to be the same as hook turning a canopy.
So so I would also call the guy on the bike an arsehole (I too have been riding 20 years), moreover people recklessly initiatin Hook turns are also arseholes, putting at risk themselves (no biggy here) but also subjecting those around them to witness their stupidity.
Dave wins you lose
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?
Hey Dave, please tell me that every hook turn accident you have seen, you describe the canopy pilot as an "asshole" It drives me freak'n crazy when people are irresponible, especially while skydiving.
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