49 passes in plane crash

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This dumbazz I work with just said, I don't understand why they just couldn't slam on the brakes once they realizied the runaway to short.

That doesn't seem like such a dumb question to me:

1) How long does it take you visually recognize that you are on the wrong, short runway?;

2) How much runway is remaining at this point?;

3) How much speed do you have at this point?; and,

4) How much distance do you need to stop from that speed?

How quickly can you stop at 200 mph?

Can they even see straight ahead and down out of the front window?

At a max takeoff weight of 72,500 lbs, not too quickly. Don't know about visability though. I've heard that the ERJ is better.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

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This dumbazz I work with just said, I don't understand why they just couldn't slam on the brakes once they realizied the runaway to short.

That doesn't seem like such a dumb question to me:

1) How long does it take you visually recognize that you are on the wrong, short runway?;

2) How much runway is remaining at this point?;

3) How much speed do you have at this point?; and,

4) How much distance do you need to stop from that speed?

How quickly can you stop at 200 mph?

Can they even see straight ahead and down out of the front window?

At a max takeoff weight of 72,500 lbs, not too quickly. Don't know about visability though. I've heard that the ERJ is better.

I'm "hearing" they were barely over 40K lbs. for takeoff......

[diverdriver 7]

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Chris, shouldn't 3500 ft available have been enough room?

ah,.....over

Not this type of jet and not at that weight. NTSB says they reached over 130 knots when they went off the end. That's really almost flying speed depending on the weight.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diverdriver 7]

Not sure where you got that weight. It isn't the max structural of the CRJ-100.

Visibility is fine in the CRJ.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[JohnRich 4]

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How quickly can you stop at 200 mph?

Can they even see straight ahead and down out of the front window?

I'm sure their lift-off speed is much less than 200 mph. But the question is, how long does it take to stop from whatever that speed is?

Visibility is another good question. Even with a clear view ahead, how soon do you recognize that the long strip of pavement in front of you ends quicker than you anticipated?

Obviously, the runway remaining wasn't enough.

The fact that the lights were inoperational on the runway should have been a clue to the pilots to check a thing or two. But they proceeded anyway...

[kallend 2,146]

From today's AVWEB.

FAA SAYS KY TOWER WAS UNDERSTAFFED
(www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/705-full.html#193087)
There should have been two controllers on duty in the Lexington, Ky.,
control tower instead of just one, on the morning that a Comair
Bombardier CRJ-100 commuter jet crashed
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/704-full.html) after
trying to take off from the wrong runway, the FAA said on Tuesday. Of
the 50 people on board the Comair flight, 49 were killed. FAA
spokeswoman Laura Brown said
(http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-08-29-ky-crash_x.htm) the
FAA has required two controllers in all towers on all shifts since
November 2005, after a near-collision of two aircraft near
Raleigh-Durham Airport in North Carolina. The Lexington tower will now
have at least two controllers at all times, one on radar and one on
the tower position. Early Sunday morning, the controller on duty, who
had 17 years of experience, cleared the Comair flight for takeoff on
Runway 22 (7,003 feet), then turned away to perform some
administrative tasks. The jet took off on Runway 26, which is only
3,500 feet long. However, Brown said, a second controller wouldn't
have necessarily made any difference.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/705-full.html#193087

DETAILS OF ACCIDENT CLARIFIED
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/705-full.html#193088)
"[The controller] expected the flight to take off from Runway 22,"
according to Debbie Hersman, of the NTSB. "He said the pilots didn't
seem confused or disoriented" when he talked to them. The CRJ hit the
grass off the end of the runway but then became airborne and was
starting to climb when it crashed into trees. The jet reached a speed
of 158 mph. The lone survivor of the crash, co-pilot James Polehinke,
was at the controls, but it was the flight's captain, Jeffrey Clay,
who had taxied the aircraft into position, the NTSB said. Clay then
handed off the controls to Polehinke for takeoff. It was about an hour
before sunrise, and Runway 26 was not lit, but the longer runway, 22,
did have lights on, the NTSB said. Polehinke had landed at the airport
two nights earlier, when the lights on Runway 22 were out of service,
according to Reuters
(http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/international/ticker/detail/Doomed_Kentucky_plane_cleared_for_proper_runway.html?siteSect=143&sid=7013318&cKey=1156790353000),
but other reports said neither pilot had landed there since changes to
the taxi routes in the last week or so.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/705-full.html#193088

SAFETY QUESTIONS RAISED
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/705-full.html#193089)
As in all fatal crashes, questions have arisen about what could be
done to prevent similar accidents in the future. USA Today
(http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-08-27-ky-crash-investigation_x.htm)
cited hundreds of cases since the 1980s when pilots tried to take off
or land on the wrong runways. Suggestions have ranged from installing
better signage and runway markings, to requiring that controllers
monitor aircraft movements. Capt. Terry McVenes, of the Air Line
Pilots Association, told USA Today
(http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-08-28-runway-edit_x.htm)
the union has been lobbying for better signs and lights for years.
"For $8 a gallon for paint, you can solve a lot of problems," he said.
Technology is available that would allow pilots to monitor their
position
(http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0UBT/is_25_17/ai_104015569),
superimposed on an airport diagram displayed on the instrument panel
(similar to the moving maps now increasingly common in new cars).
Honeywell also has a system
(http://www.honeywell.com/sites/aero/Egpws-Home3_CB54AACBB-D557-208D-8CE0-EC44CECAAB3B_HD821C499-7201-CF0B-5533-6EFD92534345.htm)
that provides aural alerts, telling the crew which runway they are
lined up on. Pilots also can check the cockpit compass heading to
ensure it agrees with the expected runway heading, but while many
pilots make this part of their routine, it's not clear that it's
included on pre-takeoff checklists.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/705-full.html#193089

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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CNN is reporting the lone ATC had only a couple hours of sleep too.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[NickDG 23]

I didn't get the link, but yesterday there was a report both pilots initially boarded the wrong CJ. They were then directed to the correct A/C by a ramp worker. I can see how that can happen, but in light of what happened later . . .

Somebody left their thinking cap at home.

NickD BASE 194

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I didn't get the link, but yesterday there was a report both pilots initially boarded the wrong CJ. They were then directed to the correct A/C by a ramp worker. I can see how that can happen, but in light of what happened later . . .

Somebody left their thinking cap at home.

NickD BASE 194

Lordie lordie. Sounds like it was fucked up from the get go.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[diverdriver 7]

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I didn't get the link, but yesterday there was a report both pilots initially boarded the wrong CJ. They were then directed to the correct A/C by a ramp worker. I can see how that can happen, but in light of what happened later . . .

Somebody left their thinking cap at home.

NickD BASE 194

Lordie lordie. Sounds like it was fucked up from the get go.

Folks, getting on the wrong plane ain't anything new. You get to the gate that has your departure city on it. You are let through by the gate agent. You get on, fire up and then get the paperwork with a different aircraft number on it. I've done it. Others have done it. What you do next makes the difference. Accept the situation and don't rush. Just get it done as best you can after that. If you're late you're late. Oh well. We'll see if they felt rushed when we read the CVR.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125