TaylorC 0 #1 May 9, 2007 After having had the expierence of using it first hand this weekend i must say i am really suprised at how effective it really is. I did watch the videos and saw it there but until you actually use it you really don't know how effective it really is. People who told me you would have problems using it if you were spinning on your back were definetly proven wrong here. Worked perfectly fine on my back evne though i had mild line twists on my reserve when it came out but i believe that was from the line twists i cut away and with me still spinning during the cutaway. Can't wait till Wings get this on there rigs so i can get it when i buy a new Wings Thanks riggerrob for the reserve save as well PS this isn't one of those ZOMG everyone needs to get a skyhook type thread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #2 May 9, 2007 Quote PS this isn't one of those ZOMG everyone needs to get a skyhook type thread Attached. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TaylorC 0 #3 May 9, 2007 QuoteQuote PS this isn't one of those ZOMG everyone needs to get a skyhook type thread Attached. omg you did not just post that... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #4 May 9, 2007 That is kinda hilarious.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #5 May 9, 2007 Yes, Skyhook is AWESOME. Here are some movies: Skyhook cutaway, side view: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1669 Skyhook cutaway, first person view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcilWotCsCs Skyhook cutaway, view from above: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=5671 Skyhook cutaway, tests: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=1224 Skyhook history and development, various mals: http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2463 ENJOY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #6 May 11, 2007 I guess I don't get it. why is a skyhook awesome? I had my second cutaway a couple of weeks ago from a spinning HP canopy. no skyhook, no rsl, no cypres, no problem.... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #7 May 11, 2007 QuoteI guess I don't get it. why is a skyhook awesome? I had my second cutaway a couple of weeks ago from a spinning HP canopy. no skyhook, no rsl, no cypres, no problem.... rm You one (1) case is not an adequate sample to draw statistical conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #8 May 11, 2007 The Skyhook is like an AAD or a seatbelt, you don't need it until you NEED it. Then it is very good. Lots of people lived through malfunctions and car crashes before them. More live after. It only does something important if things have gone very bad, due to yours or someone elses bad juju. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #9 May 11, 2007 QuoteI guess I don't get it. why is a skyhook awesome? I had my second cutaway a couple of weeks ago from a spinning HP canopy. no skyhook, no rsl, no cypres, no problem.... rm I kind of get it... But I still agree with you.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akey 0 #10 May 11, 2007 Warning, low jump number! The way i see it, if it comes down to it, for any reason, an rsl or a skyhook giving me an extra 100ft which is all that is needed to save my life, it has earnt its money back a trillion times. Same for if i can't for some reason reach my reserve handle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #11 May 11, 2007 what problem does skyhook fix? or why would anyone need to cutaway low in the first place....and don't say canopy collisions because the fix for that one should not be a skyhook. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #12 May 11, 2007 Quotewhat problem does skyhook fix? The same problems that RSLs fix. People not pulling the reserve in time after cutting away. But it does it faster. Dont get me wrong, I think it is an improvement on the RSL functionality wise. I still think it adds complexity to a system that works well when used in its simplest way: 2 handles. I really hope this doenst happen, but, with more and more rigs out there with Skyhooks, from RWS and others under license, we'll probably see instances where the skyhooks will cause an issue. Same as with RSLs. That doesnt mean they are bad add-ons, but they really arent the end all be all.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,078 #13 May 11, 2007 >an rsl or a skyhook giving me an extra 100ft which is all that is needed >to save my life, it has earnt its money back a trillion times. Yep. And if it causes a reserve problem due to the added complexity of the system, you'd probably spend a trillion dollars to have that problem not be there. The skyhook is a great device. It can help you if you cut away too low. It can hurt you if the added complexity causes rigging errors. It can also hurt you if it convinces you it is safe to cut away lower than your 'normal' cutaway altitude (which some people on this board believe.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glitch 0 #14 May 11, 2007 Quote...what problem does skyhook fix? [url] I don't think I've heard of an 'incident' (regardless of the severity) where there was only 1 factor involved. Just like a car accident, there is a chain of events leading up to it's conclusion. How far down the chain you go may or may not depend on your course of action. The sooner you break the chain of events, the better. As an example, in a purely hypothetical situation... A normal skydive; uneventful freefall and normal break off at 4K. You turn and track, and about the time you go to wave off you see someone too close to you for your comfort. You alter course and continue the track for a sec, wave off and pull. Oops... you didn't have a firm grasp on the pull and your pc binds a bit, slipping out of your hand. Your now burning thru 3K. It takes a 'micro-second' for your brain to realize it didn't extract, so while your watching your alti you reach back and search for you pc... cause you 'know' it's there, not extracted, and you have the alti to 'muck with it'. So now you grab it, noticing your alti is at 2500 and you think 'uh oh...getting close to my hard deck' and muscle memory kick in and you pitch (2100'). No real problems yet; you have a D license so your still legal... but your Sabre2/Spectre/Whatever likes to snivel and that last pack job was rushed and so it does... snivel that is. As your grabbing your risers (1300'), watching it remain a ball of crap above your head, you think 'come on you bitch...OPEN ALREADY!'. It does, but in a nasty lineover that immediately dives below the horizon and starts spinning, violently (now your down below 1000'...) You think 'Fuck this...' and reach down to cutaway, but your hand doesn't automatically find it like you 'always do' on the ground (700'). You find it, frantically pull, and nothing. You then peel it off and pull while bring looking at your reserve rip cord should be....but can't see it. Get the idea? Break the chain.Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LloydDobbler 2 #15 May 11, 2007 QuoteQuotewhat problem does skyhook fix? The same problems that RSLs fix. People not pulling the reserve in time after cutting away. But it does it faster. Dont get me wrong, I think it is an improvement on the RSL functionality wise. I still think it adds complexity to a system that works well when used in its simplest way: 2 handles. I really hope this doenst happen, but, with more and more rigs out there with Skyhooks, from RWS and others under license, we'll probably see instances where the skyhooks will cause an issue. Same as with RSLs. That doesnt mean they are bad add-ons, but they really arent the end all be all. Another low jump #-type here (so attach all aforementioned disclaimers - I have 1 cutaway, no RSL), but my research also shows that it also allows for a more consistently-clean deployment in situations where, say, you're spinning on your back. That sort of thing. Which is to say, there may be some benefits besides it just opening faster. As for the instances where the added complexity of Skyhooks might cause an issue, I'm sure we'll see an instance of it at some point. Human error will always be a factor. But statistically, to this point it's already been shown to save exponentially more lives than it's taken (well...sort-of. You can't calculate a power of 0 that isn't 0, right? Argh. Math.) Be that as it may, I completely agree with what you said: it isn't the end-all-be-all, and should not be relied upon any more than a standard RSL or a Cypres. If you listen to the Skydive Radio episode with the Bill Booth Q&A on the issue (I think is was #16-17 or so), he talks a little bit about the complexity issue, and why he waited so long to license it. (Or perhaps Bill would care to comment on it again here? Somehow I doubt it, as he's already addressed most of these concerns in previous posts.) Ultimately, when all's said & done, for my money (& life) I'd rather have a reserve open in 100 feet than one in 400 feet. No matter how high up you are, more time under your reserve gives you a better chance of fixing any issues. It's not really an expensive option, overall...and if I trust my rigger to inspect my gear, install a Cypres and repack my reserve, I'm pretty confident trusting him to pack it safely. For me, the benefits far outweigh the detriments. To each their own, though.Signatures are the new black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #16 May 11, 2007 Quoteyou'd probably spend a trillion dollars to have that problem not be there. Will you take a check? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #17 May 12, 2007 Quote It can also hurt you if it convinces you it is safe to cut away lower than your 'normal' cutaway altitude (which some people on this board believe.) 1) Not everyone makes rational decisions at 500 feet when the crap hits the fan. If someone cuts away too low - it might be the difference between bad and very bad... I know one person who might have survived this scenario with a skyhook. 2) In canopy collisions at lower altitudes that cause a main to be a streamer - it might be the difference between bad and very bad... If my main is clearly not going to land me in a livable state - I have pondered the question "add my reserve to the mess vs cutaway and hope the streamer works as a kick butt pilot chute". I am not going to tell you my answer, but I have thought about it a lot... It kind of goes in line with, "would you bail out of a plane at 800 feet" and the subsequent question, "does the plane still have wings?" I see it as a device that works best when everything else went wrong and you are needing a bit of luck and a bit of technology to save your otherwise dead butt... If we all cut away our mildly malfunctioning main at 4,000 feet - the RSL and it's nifty add-ons would be worthless and a waste of hard earned money. Even at 2,000 feet - the skyhook adds little value other than perhaps getting you open a bit higher to find a landing spot or kick out of twists on the reserve... But sometimes crap happens. Hence the skyhook reduces the odds of crap killing... Even below the "correct altitude to cut away". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #18 May 12, 2007 tdog and glitch have summed up my opinion on the Skyhook. For those that say added complexity will induce rigging errors?!? Find a new rigger and have an understanding yourself of how the skyhook works! It is not rocket science. It is a piece of aluminum, some string! and a very ingenious way of opening a reserve parachute faster and safer! The skyhook eliminates the malfunctions that make me feel an RSL is more unsafe, than no RSL. Therefore I feel the Skyhook is 'MUCH' safer than no Skyhook. My 1 instance that I could have needed it was when I was going through my AFF training. We had a camera guy there filming with no plan for break off (bad idea). Of course the IE fumbled the ripcord and the acting JM1 took his time to pull for him. I had to stick around as JM2 and once the parachute deployed i turned and tracked. Before deploying i could see the camera guy above me and tracking on the same trajectory as me, we both changed our trajectory but to the same direction at first so i went the other way and deployed as soon as we could. This all happened very quickly but i was in the saddle of my parachute at Just over 1000' I had no AAD at the time and it wouldn't nessecarily work in that situation either. If that was a malfunction then I would/could have been in real danger....or maybe not? But the moral is; Bad things can and do happen and usually at the worst possible moment. Skyhooks are the way Mmkay!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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LloydDobbler 2 #15 May 11, 2007 QuoteQuotewhat problem does skyhook fix? The same problems that RSLs fix. People not pulling the reserve in time after cutting away. But it does it faster. Dont get me wrong, I think it is an improvement on the RSL functionality wise. I still think it adds complexity to a system that works well when used in its simplest way: 2 handles. I really hope this doenst happen, but, with more and more rigs out there with Skyhooks, from RWS and others under license, we'll probably see instances where the skyhooks will cause an issue. Same as with RSLs. That doesnt mean they are bad add-ons, but they really arent the end all be all. Another low jump #-type here (so attach all aforementioned disclaimers - I have 1 cutaway, no RSL), but my research also shows that it also allows for a more consistently-clean deployment in situations where, say, you're spinning on your back. That sort of thing. Which is to say, there may be some benefits besides it just opening faster. As for the instances where the added complexity of Skyhooks might cause an issue, I'm sure we'll see an instance of it at some point. Human error will always be a factor. But statistically, to this point it's already been shown to save exponentially more lives than it's taken (well...sort-of. You can't calculate a power of 0 that isn't 0, right? Argh. Math.) Be that as it may, I completely agree with what you said: it isn't the end-all-be-all, and should not be relied upon any more than a standard RSL or a Cypres. If you listen to the Skydive Radio episode with the Bill Booth Q&A on the issue (I think is was #16-17 or so), he talks a little bit about the complexity issue, and why he waited so long to license it. (Or perhaps Bill would care to comment on it again here? Somehow I doubt it, as he's already addressed most of these concerns in previous posts.) Ultimately, when all's said & done, for my money (& life) I'd rather have a reserve open in 100 feet than one in 400 feet. No matter how high up you are, more time under your reserve gives you a better chance of fixing any issues. It's not really an expensive option, overall...and if I trust my rigger to inspect my gear, install a Cypres and repack my reserve, I'm pretty confident trusting him to pack it safely. For me, the benefits far outweigh the detriments. To each their own, though.Signatures are the new black. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #16 May 11, 2007 Quoteyou'd probably spend a trillion dollars to have that problem not be there. Will you take a check? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #17 May 12, 2007 Quote It can also hurt you if it convinces you it is safe to cut away lower than your 'normal' cutaway altitude (which some people on this board believe.) 1) Not everyone makes rational decisions at 500 feet when the crap hits the fan. If someone cuts away too low - it might be the difference between bad and very bad... I know one person who might have survived this scenario with a skyhook. 2) In canopy collisions at lower altitudes that cause a main to be a streamer - it might be the difference between bad and very bad... If my main is clearly not going to land me in a livable state - I have pondered the question "add my reserve to the mess vs cutaway and hope the streamer works as a kick butt pilot chute". I am not going to tell you my answer, but I have thought about it a lot... It kind of goes in line with, "would you bail out of a plane at 800 feet" and the subsequent question, "does the plane still have wings?" I see it as a device that works best when everything else went wrong and you are needing a bit of luck and a bit of technology to save your otherwise dead butt... If we all cut away our mildly malfunctioning main at 4,000 feet - the RSL and it's nifty add-ons would be worthless and a waste of hard earned money. Even at 2,000 feet - the skyhook adds little value other than perhaps getting you open a bit higher to find a landing spot or kick out of twists on the reserve... But sometimes crap happens. Hence the skyhook reduces the odds of crap killing... Even below the "correct altitude to cut away". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #18 May 12, 2007 tdog and glitch have summed up my opinion on the Skyhook. For those that say added complexity will induce rigging errors?!? Find a new rigger and have an understanding yourself of how the skyhook works! It is not rocket science. It is a piece of aluminum, some string! and a very ingenious way of opening a reserve parachute faster and safer! The skyhook eliminates the malfunctions that make me feel an RSL is more unsafe, than no RSL. Therefore I feel the Skyhook is 'MUCH' safer than no Skyhook. My 1 instance that I could have needed it was when I was going through my AFF training. We had a camera guy there filming with no plan for break off (bad idea). Of course the IE fumbled the ripcord and the acting JM1 took his time to pull for him. I had to stick around as JM2 and once the parachute deployed i turned and tracked. Before deploying i could see the camera guy above me and tracking on the same trajectory as me, we both changed our trajectory but to the same direction at first so i went the other way and deployed as soon as we could. This all happened very quickly but i was in the saddle of my parachute at Just over 1000' I had no AAD at the time and it wouldn't nessecarily work in that situation either. If that was a malfunction then I would/could have been in real danger....or maybe not? But the moral is; Bad things can and do happen and usually at the worst possible moment. Skyhooks are the way Mmkay!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
