Is it true what i heard some skydivers NON-Riggers prefer packing their own reserves?

[CReWLL 0]

wow, you've certainly seen a lot for not being a rigger. Kind of hard to believe.

[toronto_bill 0]

I once had a reserve repack where I found lines crossed, and a steering line wrapped around the riser once. From the previous repack. All in all, I believe it would have saved me, but if I'm paying somone $65.00. Then I expect a line check to start.

I have seen packing damage on reserves, and rigs on a 'rack' that had ribbons through the reserve closing loop.

So, I would like a 'Rigger Lite' rating to pack my own. I would feel better knowing whats on my back. Until then I will look for the best rigger by reputation I can find. Pencil packs aren't the way to go.

Bill

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

It is perfectly legal to pack your own reserve as long as you do it under the direct supervision of an appropriately rated rigger.

Pecker,
That's what I thought for years until it was pointed out to me that it's not.

We have always supervised reserve pack jobs, but if you look at the FAR's it does not give permissions to do so.

It does give the options of supervising the mains but not the reserves.

I know it sounds crazy but it is true. We discussed this very issue at the DPRE renewal meeting and it did raise everyones eyebrows.


§ 65.111 Certificate required.
top
(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with §§65.127 through 65.133.

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person—

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;

(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;

(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or

(4) Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(c) Each person who holds a parachute rigger certificate shall present it for inspection upon the request of the Administrator or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, or of any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.

(d) The following parachute rigger certificates are issued under this part:

(1) Senior parachute rigger.

(2) Master parachute rigger.

(e) Sections 65.127 through 65.133 do not apply to parachutes packed, maintained, or altered for the use of the armed forces.

[Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7973, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 65–9, 31 FR 13524, Oct. 20, 1966; 32 FR 5769, Apr. 11, 1967; Amdt. 65–42, 66 FR 23553, May 9, 2001]



If you read paragragh "A"(which references certified Canopies/reserves) it gives no provisions for supervision.
It basically means only certificated riggers can pack reserves that are to be placed in service(Jumped).

Paragraph "B" deals deals with mains and does give the option of supervision.


FAR 105 states the same thing.


I guess it is another case of "that is the way we used to do it" things of the past.


Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[Tornolf 0]

I'm not a rigger, but I very much prefer to pack my own reserve. I do so under the supervision of a rigger obviously, as forging a seal would be a pain in the ass, not to mention an asshole thing to do. Only costs me $15 to get watched and it gives me peace of mind. I've even saved myself once.

I only do it because I guess it's the kind of person I am. I also do all of my own rigging work on my non-TSO'd gear.

A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world.
-TJ

[riggerrob 643]

Enough with the barracks-lawyer gibberish!

Packing reserves under supervision is part of the normal training process for aspiring riggers.
The demands 20 documented reserve repacks before they will test any aspiring rigger.
Twenty repacks is normal., with many candidates repacking 30 reserves before testing. However, if they pack more than 40 reserves - before testing - something is wrong. Either the candidate is a slow learner, or he is being abused as slave labor.

Along that same line, CSPA insists that all supervised reserve repacks be done within the two years immediately preceding the test.

[riggerrob 643]

So, I would like a 'Rigger Lite' rating to pack my own.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Sounds like you want a CSPA Rigger A rating. Rigger As learn more theory than FAA Senior Riggers, but stop short of machine sewing.
Also Canadian riggers have the option of ignoring round reserves and most types of obsolete containers.
To earn a Canadian rigger rating, they only have to test on one type of reserve canopy (round or square) and one type of container:
one pin sport - (Javelin, Vector, Mirage, etc.)
two pin sport - (Wonderhog, Dual Hawk Tandem)
Pop-Top - (Racer, Reflex)
chest - (military-surplus, Super Pro)
pilot emergency parachute - (Aviator, Butler, Para-Cushion, Softie)

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Enough with the barracks-lawyer gibberish!

Rob,
I am simply making a legitimate point and not give out wrong information to someone.

The same point was made to me that what we have always done is not correct or legal.

Yes it is true that one must pack at least parachutes of one type to be eligible for testing.

But those pack jobs can not be jumped(legally)
as we now know.

So by continuing to inform people that is is permissible to pack a reserve under supervision
(that is to be used once completed), would be an incorrect statement!


MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[peckerhead 0]

If the rigger puts his seal on it and records it in his log book then technically it is his pack job. He or she is the one responsible for it.

I see nothing in the regulations that forbids a rigger from having an "assistant"

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi peckerhead,

I did this down in Australia when at the First POPS World Meet. Bob Jones from Hemet/Perris/Elsinore area showed up with his reserve out of date. I had brought my packing goodies in the event I would have to repack my own rig (did not want to spend time packing someone else's). BJ did not want to spend the money to have an Aussie rigger repack it, then have to have it repacked again as soon as he re-entered the USA. So I had a local Aussie rigger repack it (I think the proper terminology now is
'assist' ) while I watched/supervised and gave him some pointers on what I thought about some techniques. I then sealed and signed it off.

Everybody walked away happy.

Just an old war story,

Jerry

[peregrinerose 0]

My husband wanted to know how to pack a reserve, but isn't interested in taking a rigging course. So I let him assist with my last repack. He thinks it's funny that I'd let him work with my reserve but not let him touch his own

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[riggerrob 643]

Mel,
We will just have to be gentlemen and agree to disagree.
Maybe my definition of "supervised pack job" differs from yours.
When I "supervise" a rigger apprentice packing a reserve, I always inspect it before they arrive, then I watch over their shoulder, count tools, seal, log, etc.
If their technique does not closely resemble my personal packing technique (based on the Talon 2 manual, but adjusted to conform to other container manufacturers' instructions), it gets stretched out and re-folded by me.
Note, this policy only applies to serious rigger apprentices. After 20-ish repacks, they get kicked out of my loft.
If they visit a DPRE, GREAT!
If not, that is their problem.
I do not believe that supervising a skydiver repack his own reserve saves anyone any time.

My attitude is similar to the old mechanics' rates:
$25 per hour for repairs
$35 per hour if you watch
$45 per hour if tried to fix it yourself
$55 per hour if you help

[masterrigger1 2]

Rob,
It is not a matter of if we disagree (which we do).

The FAA pointed out the FAR's to us already 2 months ago and we play by their rules so to speak.

I have always supervised pack jobs before the FAR's were pointed out that is was not legal.

If you still sign off supervised pack jobs, just do not get caught.

I, for one, will no longer do it! I will make them pack rigs that will later be either unpacked or packed by myself.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[riggerrob 643]

This latest change to the FARs is scary!

It makes it ridiculously expensive - measured in time - to train new riggers.
Master Riggers charge $25 to $50 per hour.
The only way to make training pay would be to charge apprentices $50 (or more) per practice pack job!

I have heard of lawyers and pilots eating their young, but at least young lawyers can hope to make serious money when they become partners ...