missing climbers

[MikeForsythe 0]

The cost of all three items is less than an AAD which to me is a cheap price to save your life and reduce the risk of others trying to save yours. They take up very little space and add less than 26 oz. And if you think about it the price is cheap compared to the cost of looking for them (probably over a million), loss of life and risk to the SAR responders.

I have never really cared about being "cool" when it comes to safety. I personally rather be "found"!

Here is some good information on PLB's

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[MikeForsythe 0]

Quote

"you might need it once in your lifetime" isn't that compelling.

I think I know three climbers right now that would probably disagree with you and so would all of the SAR personnel looking for them!

And more and more people are carrying the equipment and finding that it is worth the weight and the cost!

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[MikeForsythe 0]

Quote

Probably not as stupid as taking 400 jumpers to 26,000 feet without bailout oxygen to try to get a world record. Definitely not as stupid as how we got the 357-way record.

Really? Did this result in a 100% fatality rate as the Mt, Hood incident will probably turn out to be?

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[billvon 3,108]

> Did this result in a 100% fatality rate as the Mt, Hood incident will
>probably turn out to be?

Ask Shannon Embry or Sandy Wambach.

[billvon 3,108]

>I think I know three climbers right now that would probably disagree with
>you and so would all of the SAR personnel looking for them!

Right. And I watched a guy spin in under three collapsed canopies in Eloy during Nationals. I bet he wished he had a tersh he could hand-launch. But most people don't use them for such once-in-a-lifetime needs. (Fortunately he escaped without major injury.)

[LouDiamond 1]

I know for a fact that the Military has sent assets to help in this effort as I was involved in part of the initial coordination to allocate resources to those who needed them in the rescue effort.

I can also vouch for the need and worth in having a PLB as I have carried one with me before and its worth every penny. The bodies we recovered off of the mountainside at 15k feet in Afghanistan when the Blackwater casa crashed did not have one among any of them. Had they had a PLB, other than the aircrafts ELT, I am pretty sure at least one of them would be alive today.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[MikeForsythe 0]

Quote

But most people don't use them for such once-in-a-lifetime needs.

Exactly, and there lies the problem. They don't care who it affects as it is all about them. They don't care who dies trying to find them and save them. And I am talking about the Mt. Hood type incident and not skydiving. That is another issue.

It is easy to point out the one or two in a million or millions. Rather than trying to make comparisons that don't apply, judge this incident and discipline on it's own merits.

The bottom line is that this is occurring more often and clearly requires consistently more high risk SAR resources for something that is easily avoidable.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[labrys 0]

Quote

If you think this is bad you should go hang out in the Speakers Corner.If it were a great idea people would not be looking for them.The same goes for skydiving.If it were the best idea no one would die from it.I defend the right for stratostar to ponder this question.Maybe you should go find a better touchie feelie forum.

I think he has every right to post also, and if I wanted "touchie feelie" I wouldn't have excersised my own right to call BS on the use of the word "stupid."

I have thicker skin than you assume and I have a right to post here also.

Owned by Remi #?

[rhys 0]

Quote

Just wondering, anyone else think it was pretty stupid of these guys to attempt a climb on Mt. Hood this time of the year?

Good question!

It depends on the objective and experience of the climbers!

I studied avalanche for a few years before i started my skydive diploma, I am no great mountain climber but i have spent alot of time in the mountains and have studied them digging hundreds of snow profiles etc.

I don't know anything about Mt. Hood but if it was ice climbing they were after then this is the best time of year.
If they were simply trying to summit? then it depends if an ice climbing route would make the route faster/easier/safer?

I don't know about mt. Hood but avalanche risk is there year round on signifcant mountains, and winter climbing takes much more experience and equipment! It is alot like skydiving. the risks are there and you minimise them with knowledge, equipment and experience.

others mentioned that rock climbers wouldn't know about mountain climbing???

that is quite nieve to say as mountain climbing and rock climbing are disciplines of the same sport. that is like saying a belly flyer knows knows nothing of freeflying!

they may not know it all but it is quite likely they have a better understanding of it than a non skydiver/climber would!

winter in the mountains is amazing and my favorite place to be. but it can be very dangerous.

Mt. Kilimanjaro is no mountain climb! O.K. it is the highest freestanding mountain in the world and you could die from altitude sickness but avalanche risk is absolute minimum and the main route is like a walking track.

I'm looking at Mt. Kili as i sit here it is quite something!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[Amazon 7]

Winter ascents on Mt Hood are not at all uncommon. BUT.... you have to have the gear... you have to have the knowledge... and you better have a weather window. Its an unforgiving environment when a storm rolls in off the Not So Pacific Ocean this time of year. The conditions up there can get ugly ANY time of the year, If you go prepared for the worst... and know when its time to dig in and sit the weather out then go for it. BUT it has claimed a hell of a lot of climbers over the years.

[1969912 0]

Yep, and the vast majority of deaths are during the "good" season. It can be deceiving. I've seen kids summit in not much more that a windbreaker and hunting boots. they got lucky. During the same time of the year, I've had my ass kicked pretty good a couple times when the weather went bad and had to boogie back down. Similarly, some of the winter routes are supposed to be an 8 hour climb. If the weather turns at the wrong time, though, you could be in big trouble.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[stratostar 5]

Quote

Winter ascents on Mt Hood are not at all uncommon.

I would have thought it would be, due to the snow depth and weather, the reason I thought this....

Quote

and the vast majority of deaths are during the "good" season

Larry King had some more good info last night for those of us not in the know. And as far as me using the word "stupid" well to me it still seems a stupid thing to try,IMHO this time of the year, I wouldn't try it if asked to go, out of my not wanting to freeze my ass off. Their big boy's and knew what they were getting into and willing to take the risk, just like we do on every jump. Somethings I think are real stupid to do in skydiving, like trying to catch a cutaway canopy in the air(is a good example), some people will and have tried to do, and it get's them, we (some of us) learned a long time ago it was not a good idea to do those types of things, and if I see you doing some of those things I may or may not come up and tell you, your about to do something stupid. Some people see it as stupid and others don't, it all in how you look at it.

Now I don't wish harm on anyone, and me talking about cutway catching is not about Nate Gilbert, he just happens to be the last one known to me to have tried and lost. And had I seen him trying it, I would have dug out some old photos from the late 70's and told him (or anyone else) that is a stupid thing to do and here is why. I'm sorry if no one explained it to him and he just didn't know all the risks, maybe he did know all the risks, maybe he didn't. No disrespect to the fallen ment by this statement, take it as you will.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[rhys 0]

Quote

Larry King had some more good info last night for those of us not in the know. And as far as me using the word "stupid" well to me it still seems a stupid thing to try,IMHO this time of the year, I wouldn't try it if asked to go, out of my not wanting to freeze my ass off. Their big boy's and knew what they were getting into and willing to take the risk, just like we do on every jump.

this is true but just because you don't like to be in the cold. It doesn't make it stupid. yes there are risks but winter climbing is a whole sport on its own really and in winter routes can be easier and safer. it depends on your common sense, you routefinding skills and snow analysis skills and a bit of nice treatment from mother nature. With todays technology there is no reason to be stormed out in a single day ascent so My thoughts on this particular case is that they were not experienced enough. be it in skill or meterology knowledge etc.
i have no clue of the story but this sort of thing happens all the time.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[pop 0]

Quote

Just wondering, anyone else think it was pretty stupid of these guys to attempt a climb on Mt. Hood this time of the year?

Doode....you sound like a climbing whuffo!

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[ImGunnaJump 0]

Quote

Or is it more that having these devices is not considered "cool"
>(some people in our sport don't want A.A.D.'s)?

To put the question in skydiving terms -

Do you carry supplemental O2 in case you get some extra altitude and have to hold? Do you carry a tersh? Why or why not? Is it that O2 or the third parachute just isn't "cool?"

The "cool" question was just one of three in that paragraph, and wasn't asked without sympathy, and I don't think it is a totally invalid question given what I've seen in our sport:

-people walk to the plane with their chest straps undone, or even get on, because they think the look/are 'cool'.
-some folks don't put on their helmets during take-off because they're too cool to do it.
-some jumpers won't wear an A.A.D. because that's for newbies.

There could be a subculture of people who climb who choose to not use certain safety precautions for all sorts of reasons, and so I asked just to see if that exists in the sport and to possibly gauge how prevalent it is. To pretend that it couldn't possibly be a factor is naive.

Quote

Mountain climbers cut the ends off toothbrushes to reduce the weight they have to carry. Adding a pound of additional gear would take a very compelling reason, and "you might need it once in your lifetime" isn't that compelling.

[Remster 30]

They do what they love doing, and go where most of us are too chicken and lazy to go. I'm glad there are still adventurers out there.

Remster

[ImGunnaJump 0]

***

Quote

They do what they love doing, and go where most of us are too chicken and lazy to go. I'm glad there are still adventurers out there.

***


Yeah, I agree with you...it's just a shame it's unfolding the way it is.

"...I've learned that while the "needs" in life are important (food, water, shelter), it's the "wants" in life (ice cream, chocolate, sex) that make it worth the effort." Kbordson

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

They do what they love doing, and go where most of us are too chicken and lazy to go. I'm glad there are still adventurers out there.

EXACTLY .....

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[stitch 0]

Quote

They do what they love doing, and go where most of us are too chicken and lazy to go. I'm glad there are still adventurers out there.

How ya do'in??

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[Douva 0]

Quote

-people walk to the plane with their chest straps undone, or even get on, because they think the look/are 'cool'.
-some folks don't put on their helmets during take-off because they're too cool to do it.
-some jumpers won't wear an A.A.D. because that's for newbies.

Are you fucking kidding me?

What kind of immature, halfwit morons are you jumping out of airplanes with? I suppose if you looked hard enough you might find some guy who thinks reserve chutes are for pussies, but just because you found him wouldn't mean you should start speaking of such behavior as if it's commonplace.

You're honestly suggesting there are many skydivers who walk to the plane with their chest straps undone, refuse to put on their helmets in the plane, and don't jump with cypresses because they think those things aren't cool? Give me a break.

Jumpers walk to the plane with undone chest straps for a variety of reasons, ranging from being in too big a hurry to wanting to route the chest strap through their camera helmet chin cup before takeoff. Jumpers who don't put on their helmets for takeoff usually do so because wearing a helmet in the plane is uncomfortable. And people who jump without cypresses usually can't afford one or have some sort of issue with the possibility of taking some of the control of the skydive out of their own hands. To attribute this behavior to wanting to "look cool" is silly and naive.

I don't have an M.D. or a law degree. I have bachelor's in kicking ass and taking names.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

For what its worth, they were planning to be gone for 2 days, packed for a week. They werent completley unprepared.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[bmcd308 0]

>>To attribute this behavior to wanting to "look cool" is silly and naive.<<

I think you give far too much credit.

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[ImGunnaJump 0]

Apparently people are looking for an angle or a sentiment that isn't there.

First of all, I have great sympathy for these climbers AND commented that they appeared to be experienced, and had shown good judgement in leaving a note,etc. in my very first post in this thread.

But it seems that some of the responses are taking a tone that I'm calling them stupid - that was someone else's description, NOT MINE.

Secondly, Douva, I never said the examples I used were "commonplace" - you read that into it,for whatever reason. I have actually seen people do those/say those things since I have been jumping, not often, thankfully, but I have seen it. And so I used those examples as a way to get my point across to an experienced climber who could shed some light on why this situation is unfolding the way it is for these climbers. I am allowed to ask questions, and I'll use whatever form I want to ask them.

For you to jump in and hype this up into something that it isn't, is wrong...but, boy, it sure did make you look "cool", didn't it??

Edit to add: I'm done with this discussion.

"...I've learned that while the "needs" in life are important (food, water, shelter), it's the "wants" in life (ice cream, chocolate, sex) that make it worth the effort." Kbordson

[billvon 3,108]

>Huh??? I may only have a reserve ride once in my lifetime, but I carry
>the reserve on my back anyway. I would think that being able to be found
>would be a very compelling reason.

Most skydivers need a reserve several times in their careers. I'm referring to a tertiary reserve, something a skydiver _might_ need once in their careers if they are doing CRW. They also, of course, have specific risks inherent in their usage.

>I understand the weight issue with climbers. But I would think that the
>margin of safety using just one of the devices MikeForsythe mentioned is
>worth it's weight, literally, especially the PLB.

There's a lot of discussion in the climbing community about weight vs. gadgets. A former girlfriend was one of the more active Himalayan climbers, and her opinion was that carrying all the stuff (radios, satellite radio, beacons, oxygen, emergency supplies etc) slowed you down enough that you were at greater risk of being caught by weather. She'd usually take a radio that usually wouldn't work due to the cold. She could generally get a few messages off by storing the battery inside her suit - but knew it wouldn't last long enough for use during a sustained rescue.

Was she idiotic? Was she not carrying a second battery/oxygen/avalanche transceiver because she wanted to be "cool?" No - she just thought that the tradeoff where she climbed wasn't worth it.

[billvon 3,108]

>To attribute this behavior to wanting to "look cool" is silly and naive.

Good point. I've done all those things on occasion for other reasons (spare rig, quick turns for training, talking to a student during takeoff.) And no one's ever talked to me about it directly, but once or twice I've overheard other people saying "guy thinks he's too cool to put his gear on until he gets to the plane."