CanuckInUSA 0 #1 January 18, 2007 When is spending money and increasing debt load the right thing to do and will all the spending I’m now doing and going to be doing within the next year or so hurt the amount of jumping I’m going to be able to do? I’m back living in my 25 year old house (I’ve owned since ’93) after a 9 years absence (and dealing with 9 years of renter’s abuse) and I am in the early stages of some fairly ambitious home renovations. I plan on: - overhauling all three bathrooms. - overhauling the kitchen (haven’t decided on a budget yet, but it won’t be cheap). - replacing most if not all of my windows and exterior doors. - replacing all interior doors and interior closet doors. - replacing all electrical switches and light fixtures. - replacing all door + window casings and baseboards. - replacing all carpets in the house. - replacing the non-carpeted flooring with either tiles and/or new linoleum. - might possibly go with hardwood flooring in some parts of the house (not sure). - patching some holes in the walls. - painting the entire house. - fixing the oak woodwork in the house which the renters abused and defaced. - either painting or replacing the garage door. - possibly extending/enhancing the deck in the backyard. - many, many, many other miscellaneous tasks. So far I’ve spent about $6000 on about 20% of the paint needed, on all my interior doors and closet doors, on about 50% of my new light fixtures and about 75% of my new bathroom fixtures, on some new tools and many other miscellaneous products to get the job done. I am looking at some bids for my bathroom cabinets and counter tops (likely about $8000-$10000 for all three bathrooms) and another $12000 to replace five windows, two external doors and my patio door (I will still be left with another 40% of the windows which may need to be replaced in the future but they are in decent enough shape for now unlike the ones which need immediate replacing). I still haven’t decided on exactly what will happen to the kitchen, but I am leaning towards knocking out a wall, expanding it and doing a total re-gut. Most of the work on the house will be done by myself (saving a lot of money in labor, but of course that will come at a cost of my time and I risk not being to do the job(s) as well as a seasoned professional might do (but at least I won’t fall victim to the handy-man I will fix it for cheap scam). But all external work on the house (windows and doors) will be contracted out since I have no experience in that realm and being in the frozen tundra it’s kind of important for that stuff to be done right (and I am only talking to reputable, not cheap experts). Depending on how my self-done bathroom renovations go, I may decide to tackle the kitchen all by myself or I may decide to hire a reputable contractor to help. I do want to make sure that the kitchen turns out nice. So when push comes to shove I can easily see myself spending $30,000 - $50,000 in materials (and some labor on the windows and external doors). I have no set time limit, but I’m thinking I’m looking at getting it all done before the Spring of 2008 (maybe sooner depending on how much additional debt I’m willing to absorb). I definitely don’t plan on give up jumping. People will still see me out at the DZs once the snow melts. But I do believe that spending the money to upgrade my house is a good thing to do. It gives me something to do (besides wasting time posting on the internet) and I think it will empower me with the skills and knowledge to tackle any sort of plumbing, electrical and carpentry need around the house. Oh and I did (with the help of a knowledgeable friend) develop my basement about 10 years ago, so I have some experience tackling certain aspects of home renovations. I just need to bring myself up to speed on some plumbing and tiling skills (and of course paying attention to interior designing trends couldn’t hurt). Of course I could ignore all this, sell the house as is, cut-away, live on a DZ in some beat up trailer, jump my ass off and become poor like the rest of my full-time skydiving brothers and sisters. But not being a yank, I can’t make a living being a full-time skydiving bum up here in Can’a’dia. So I am leaning towards do the responsible thing-a-ma-bob. This will hurt my swooping. Oh well, I never was going to be one of the best anyway and I am happy with where my current swooping skills are. So when is spending money a good thing? We know we can’t take it with us? You know our money ... Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LisaM 0 #2 January 18, 2007 It is never ok to increase debt in my opinion. I used to think it was necessary. We have been credit card free for a year now and we are doing just fine! ~ Lisa ~ Do you Rigminder? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #3 January 18, 2007 You do have to ask yourself what the worth of the house is, what the overall worth of the house will be worth when you're done, compare that number to what your spending and compare the worth of your home with those in your area. Regardless of what you spend and build, if the homes around you are appraised low, yours will always be appraised lower then what its worth. If you're not worried about the overall worth of the house and you want it to be your home, then you'll be happy and won't be too worried about viewing the improvments as an investment.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #4 January 18, 2007 Quote I plan on: - overhauling all three bathrooms. - overhauling the kitchen (haven’t decided on a budget yet, but it won’t be cheap). - replacing most if not all of my windows and exterior doors. - replacing all interior doors and interior closet doors. - replacing all electrical switches and light fixtures. - replacing all door + window casings and baseboards. - replacing all carpets in the house. - replacing the non-carpeted flooring with either tiles and/or new linoleum. - might possibly go with hardwood flooring in some parts of the house (not sure). - patching some holes in the walls. - painting the entire house. - fixing the oak woodwork in the house which the renters abused and defaced. - either painting or replacing the garage door. - possibly extending/enhancing the deck in the backyard. - many, many, many other miscellaneous tasks. Long time no see man! I would HIGHLY suggest you bring this to at least 5 home remodelers if you are serious. Doing this piece by piece will end up costing you a FORTUNE! If you have the resorces to do this in a single or even a two phase project - have one contractor responsible for it, it will save you alot of headaches as well as time and money. PM if you want . . .I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #5 January 18, 2007 credit card debt is one thing. Home owner debt is another. Home owner debt can be good debt. If he improves his house & makes it more sell-able in the future, that is a good thing. even if he doesn't plan on selling it anytime in the near future, at least some of the work will be done now. He's building up "sweat equity" as they used to say. and also you can get much lower interest rates on home improvement loans than on credit cards. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #6 January 18, 2007 As long as society doesn't crumble, I am living in the fastest growing economy in North America (Alberta) since we are in the process of ramping up our Oil extraction capabilities to help service you guys down south. So Real Estate is a hot-topic around here and homes prices are going up. Plus my house is in the middle of the area I live in ... meaning I am not the big guy on the block nor am I the little guy. I'm in the middle (the best place to be) in a good desireable area. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #7 January 18, 2007 Quoteyou can get much lower interest rates on home improvement loans than on credit cards I currently owe $34,000 CDN on a house worth somewhere around $400,000+ and my debt is in the form of a home equity line of credit (I don't even have a traditional mortgage). So I am in a position to make this work as long as I don't rush things and do them right the first time. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #8 January 18, 2007 A gambler increases debt to try to get ahead. A swooper increases speed to try to get ahead. A tight rope walker increases balance to try to get ahead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #9 January 18, 2007 Then go for it, but do it right. Doing half-assed quality work over a long amount of time will result in less then great looking results. A single contractor and a small workforce doesn't cost as much as you think and can have the work done fast and right. Then you also have someone else holding the liablity if something isn't done correctly.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #10 January 18, 2007 QuoteI would HIGHLY suggest you bring this to at least 5 home remodelers if you are serious. Doing this piece by piece will end up costing you a FORTUNE! The vast majority of the work I will do is to be done by myself saving myself a lot of money in labor (I'm in a very tight labor market right now living in the fastest growing economy of North America). My bathrooms are not big, so I believe I will learn a lot about my skills levels up front (to know whether or not I can do my kitchen by myself). Plus replacing my interior doors and light fixtures are no brainers. I did learn a lot about home renos 10 years ago when a knowledgeable buddy of mine taught me how to build walls, wire them and dry wall them them the right way. But not being a professional, there are still some risks. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LisaM 0 #11 January 18, 2007 Very very true. Ok I take back the "never" ~ Lisa ~ Do you Rigminder? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #12 January 18, 2007 QuoteAs long as society doesn't crumble, I am living in the fast growing economy in North America (Alberta) since we are in the process of ramping up our Oil extraction capabilities to help service you guys down south. Uh, oh! If Cheney hears about this, he will be instructing the CIA to release another report outlining yet another foreign country developing WMD's. And you know where it goes from there..."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #13 January 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteI would HIGHLY suggest you bring this to at least 5 home remodelers if you are serious. Doing this piece by piece will end up costing you a FORTUNE! The vast majority of the work I will do is to be done by myself saving myself a lot of money in labor (I'm in a very tight labor market right now living in the fastest growing economy of North America). My bathrooms are not big, so I believe I will learn a lot about my skills levels up front (to know whether or not I can do my kitchen by myself). Plus replacing my interior doors and light fixtures are no brainers. I did learn a lot about home renos 10 years ago when a knowledgeable buddy of mine taught me how to build walls, wire them and dry wall them them the right way. But not being a professional, there are still some risks. Cool - but - and I mean no offence by this . . . but it does seem that your plans ARE pretty ambitious. What is your time frame?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #14 January 18, 2007 Going into debt is a good thing if it is intended to put you in an overall better financial position. It's like priming a pump - you've got a supply of water down in a well, but you need to borrow some water to fill the pump to get that water out. By borrowing some water, you'll get more out of it. Usually, buying a home is a good thing. Renovating a home is different - some things you won't make money on. Some people fix up bedrooms all nice, but they don't work good for the investment. My wife and I have sunk a lot of money into getting our house the way we want it, though. Some investments were good, others were not so good from a financial standpoint. But my wife and I plan on living there for a long time. We'll make the place we want it. I often wondered why people would do nothing with a house for ten years and then fix it up nice right before selling it when they could have lived in a nice place all along and just did minor maintenance. Here are my comments - overhauling all three bathrooms - usually a great return on investment for a mid-range remodel. - overhauling the kitchen (haven’t decided on a budget yet, but it won’t be cheap) - usually declining return on investment the more upscale the renovation. Minor kitchen renovation is even money. The more upscale the renovation, the more negative the return. - replacing most if not all of my windows and exterior doors. - marginal investment return in areas with more extreme climates due to greater savings on utilities, but immediate resale value is only at 90 percent of cost. - replacing all interior doors and interior closet doors - less in terms of money return. Don't go into debt for these, just pay as you go. - replacing all electrical switches and light fixtures - not real good for money return. If you like them, do it (I just replaced most of the lights of our house) but don't expect value appreciation. - replacing all door + window casings and baseboards - this can be done cheaply with a minimum of knowledge. All you need is a mitre saw and nailer (hammer and nails are tough because it's easy to mar the casing and baseboard). Also, use the fibreboard baseboards and casings - real wood warps too easily and is much more difficult to work with. The fiberboard works great. I learned this the hard way. - replacing all carpets in the house. - won't improve value, but will get rid of renter damage and make house prettier and more liveable. - replacing the non-carpeted flooring with either tiles and/or new linoleum - even money on that. - might possibly go with hardwood flooring in some parts of the house (not sure) - good investment if the flooring is not pergo. Engineered flooring seems to get the most value and resale and it more durable. - patching some holes in the walls - definite plus! - painting the entire house - another definite plus, if needed and you plan to live there. Especially in a more extreme climate. - fixing the oak woodwork in the house which the renters abused and defaced - expensive, but probably worthwhile if the oakwork is affixed to the house. - either painting or replacing the garage door. - suggestion of "painting' means the door works just fine. If it ain't broke, don't fix or replace. If painting will do it, then paint it. - possibly extending/enhancing the deck in the backyard - typically a 90 percent investment return. - many, many, many other miscellaneous tasks. - do those! My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #15 January 18, 2007 ...timing is everything...maximize your debt shortly before you die.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #16 January 18, 2007 QuoteCool - but - and I mean no offence by this . . . but it does seem that your plans ARE pretty ambitious. What is your time frame? Hey Turtle I forgive you for having such a short attention span (Turtles never were know for being fast), but all this info is in the original post. But let me re-cap. Yes my plans are very ambitious. They started off as (let's just paint the house and sell it and buy something smaller). But I have since changed my mind. I am leaning towards fixing the place up and living in it for years to come (since buying something smaller in my market isn't necessarily going to save me any money). Anyway, I have no specific time frame. I'm am targeting the Spring of 2008. But that's not set in stone and who knows maybe I could do it all before then (not the deck, if the deck happens it will be in the summer of 2008, but the deck is low priority). I am still working on fixing all the renter's abuse in my basement before I start painting it (I'm starting in my basement and working my way up since it was pretty much me with the help of a friend who did that work and I am most familiar with what needs to be done there). Plus while I wait for windows and bathroom cabinets to be built, I hope to have educated myself more on plumbing (including doing some proof of concept tasks on some test pipes before I move on the the real thing). The first bathroom I tackle is a small 1/2 bath and in between all of this, my brother is also building a custom home through a general contractor buddy of his (it's just finishing the drywall mudding stage) and I hope to be able to sit in on some of the work they do for their bathroom tiling as well as kitchen installation phases to learn a thing or two from these guys. Plus I am supposed to talk to my brother's general contractor pal about my kitchen plans, but you know how things go when there is more work than there are workers. Us little guys tend to get low priority. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #17 January 18, 2007 Absolutely. It DOES suck for the home owner there, or even the little guy that needs to upgrade or start his business, and needs to build when the markt is how it is. If it weren't so F'n cold up there, I'd open a general contracting branch up there.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shell666 0 #18 January 18, 2007 QuoteAbsolutely. It DOES suck for the home owner there, or even the little guy that needs to upgrade or start his business, and needs to build when the markt is how it is. If it weren't so F'n cold up there, I'd open a general contracting branch up there. It's only cold half the time. 'Shell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #19 January 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteAbsolutely. It DOES suck for the home owner there, or even the little guy that needs to upgrade or start his business, and needs to build when the markt is how it is. If it weren't so F'n cold up there, I'd open a general contracting branch up there. It's only cold half the time. So you only get to work half the time.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shell666 0 #20 January 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteIt's only cold half the time. So you only get to work half the time. Nope. You work all the time. You just get to work half the time in the COLD. I suggest working indoors then. 'Shell'Shell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #21 January 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteIt's only cold half the time. So you only get to work half the time. Nope. You work all the time. You just get to work half the time in the COLD. I suggest working indoors then. 'Shell Silly Silly Girl . . . You don't get the luxury, when you are trying to make a living as a General Contractor, of picking only inside or outside jobs and expect to make it, excpecially as a newcomer to the area.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shell666 0 #22 January 18, 2007 QuoteSilly Silly Girl . . . You don't get the luxury, when you are trying to make a living as a General Contractor, of picking only inside or outside jobs and expect to make it, excpecially as a newcomer to the area. Then buy a toque. 'Shell'Shell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #23 January 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteSilly Silly Girl . . . You don't get the luxury, when you are trying to make a living as a General Contractor, of picking only inside or outside jobs and expect to make it, excpecially as a newcomer to the area. Then buy a toque. 'Shell Nah. I'll just move in with you and your dog.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shell666 0 #24 January 18, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteSilly Silly Girl . . . You don't get the luxury, when you are trying to make a living as a General Contractor, of picking only inside or outside jobs and expect to make it, excpecially as a newcomer to the area. Then buy a toque. 'Shell Nah. I'll just move in with you and your dog. That's a long commute to Calgary. I'm 2.5 hours NORTH of there! 'Shell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bloody_trauma 2 #25 January 18, 2007 its only ok to increase debt when we go to war somewhat vague groundsFly it like you stole it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites