Anyone Have Good Dog Training Info/References?

[ACMESkydiver 0]

We might, HOPEFULLY, with a BUNCH OF LUCK, get our hands on two of THESE PUPPIES.

I thought it was a local story in our little Covington Reporter...but apparently it hit the Seattle Times, so who knows how many people have applied to adopt the little guys by now.

Anyhoo, we're wanting to get the puppies, take them to basic obedience school, then go for some serious, in-depth specialty training that we will do for our boys' specific needs.

I am not a dog trainer though...and local trainers are saying they can't train to what we want (is that stupid or what?! Yes it's out of the ordinary, but for the love of Pete if someone is willing to pay for it, why not? )

Any good books/training methods?

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[NWFlyer 2]

Have you contacted any of the societies/organizations that deal with Autism? Seems like that would be a better starting place for the specialized training.

And certainly a local trainer could help you with the basic stuff ...

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[PhreeZone 20]

If you are needing to have dogs specially trained for tasks like working with disabilities the first thing you need to determine is if the dog is even compatibile with that task. The behaivor of each dog is different and two from the same litter might have completley different attitudes and may or may not work. Getting a dog then trying to bed it to your will is never a good idea and it will only lead to frustration towards the dog and the dog will get frustrated with you.

Task specific training takes a lot of time and isn't something that just anyone can do easly, make sure you have lots of free time and the room to train it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[BIGUN 1,488]

Perhaps you could get some help here?

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=8139

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[skycat 0]

I've trained my Belgian to do 75% of the things that a service dog would do as well as Search and Rescue training. He wouldn't be a good service dog due to to much energy, but he would make a great SARs dog and passed the adult test that my training facility gave. I just don't have the time or money to do more than train and keep him busy.

It does take time and commitment, but training specific behaviors that fit exactly what the children need can be done. Trust me not all trainers are equal, I've heard trainers say everything from my dog should be put down to my dog needs to compete in dog sports, I went with the ones who thought he had great potential (which he did).

I PM'd you as well, but I have a great idea, tell me what you want the dog to do and I'll see if I can train Sherpa to do it, well except for opening the fridge door, for his own health and non-fat butt I just can't do that one.

Fly it like you stole it!

[Stacy 0]

If you are looking to train a service dog, one of those rescued dogs may not be the right dog. I'm a total advocate for shelter animals- but the paper says off the bat that they are timid. That's not something that is easily overcome, and often with an animal for life. There's a ton of training involved for a well-qualified dog to become a service dog- and a special needs puppy may never live up to those standards.

One of our dogs was a special needs dog- was abandoned on the road and was afraid of people. Two years later we can have company in our house and not worry about her getting freaked out. After two years she just has the confidence enough to go to obedience school with out us being scared for her.

Shelter dogs are great, but very well could not live up to what you want them to do. You may be better going to a well known breeder, etc.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Perhaps you could get some help here?

http://neurotalk.psychcentral.com/showthread.php?t=8139

Thanks, that's a great place to start!

We do have infor from North Star -the reason we can't go through NorthStar Dogs for ours is the waiting list...it is 2 years long.

Yep they are the best, but with Autism, time is a commodity so NorthStar is off the list as of right now.

I did order Patty Dobb's book, The Golden Bridge, today! It is information on how to select and train your own dog for service to Autistics.

Local people are terribly hard to find...I will sign up for that web site and see who I can get.

Thanks!

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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Have you contacted any of the societies/organizations that deal with Autism? Seems like that would be a better starting place for the specialized training.

You would think, wouldn't ya? Unfortunately, NOBODY around here has a 'trained' Autism dog! Our friends have a German Sheperd that they are using as a service dog, but he was the family pet that they are using more as a companion to there son, not as a genuine 'working' dog. Their boy Cole can speak and is higher functioning than our twins.

I contacted the local Autism Society chapters, and Cure Autism Now (now Autism Speaks), and unfortunately the same 2-3 national dog trainers keep coming up, and they are full for years.

...and there's the little issue with $10,000-$30,000 that the trainers want for these dogs. Oy.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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If you are looking to train a service dog, one of those rescued dogs may not be the right dog.

I was all for getting the dogs through a breeder, but these dogs are in such need that I was wanting to check them out first. They are the PERFECT breed (cross between goldens and labs are actually preferred for Autism Service Dogs!)

I went down to the shelter today to see if I could take a look at them, but they have all been sent out to foster homes to nurse up and get well. The gal at the shelter said she estimates them at about 4 weeks old. I was hoping that seeing as they are so very young, the trauma from being left in a dumpster may be overcome if we get them some loves quick.
There are also a few tests that need to be done to ensure that they are service-dog material, like PhreeZone said up there...we need to do a startle response test and a 'pinch' test (a breeder told me how to do these things; I'll follow up with her) to make sur ethat the dogs don't:

Urinate and shake when scared (bad startle response)
Bite when pinched (of course a dog is going to yelp, but they should not bite) This test you just squeeze between the webbing of a foot and if the dog yelps, it has an appropriate response. If it bites, it's not a service dog
Hearing has to be checked out
Hip, eye, and heart check out by a vet

Lots of things. We aren't wandering into taking on two dogs lightly. We are trying to arm ourselves with plenty of info first.

I even went to Petco and got a list of items we're going to need, as well as checking out Home Depot for the high fencing to contain the side of our backyard to make a kennel. The dogs will be indoors most of the time, except for exercise, potty breaks, and out playing with the kids.

Here are some titles I just bought today:
The Golden Bridge: A Guide to Assistance Dogs for Children Challenged By Autism or Other Developmental Disabilities
The Power of Positive Dog Training
Clicker Training: Simple Solutions


And just for me I bought 'Let Me Hear Your Voice'. It's about a family that taught their Autistic son to speak and actually moved him off of the Autistic spectrum (they 'cured' him, by definition) through multiple interventions. The title made me cry like a baby. God if it was only possible!

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Thanks for all the help!!

Be careful if you train Sherpa the paw or lap cue to stop you from banging your head...you might end up with a concussion!

That list I sent you is just what we are thinking and what we have heard of Auttie dogs doing...any advice/suggestions are always welcome.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[karenmeal 0]

I would definitely consult with as many people as possible before getting the dog(s).

I know from my family's experience that trying to train two litter mates at the same time can be very difficult. We got our puppies at the local humane society and couldn't bear leaving the last puppy of the litter alone in a kennel, so we ended up getting two. Well, it ended up having bad results. Not only were they hard to train, but the skiddish nature that one puppy had from the beginning (which we ignored) ended up being a major problem. (As you might remember.) After we got the puppies and started going to obedience classes we got a lot of flack from trainers about getting litter mates. A lot of trainers really frown on that. So I would also consider that aspect before getting the dogs.

You might also give some consideration to getting a slightly older dog that will have a much more predictable temperament, and which also might already be house-trained.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[eeneR 3]

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I would definitely consult with as many people as possible before getting the dog(s).

I know from my family's experience that trying to train two litter mates at the same time can be very difficult. We got our puppies at the local humane society and couldn't bear leaving the last puppy of the litter alone in a kennel, so we ended up getting two. Well, it ended up having bad results. Not only were they hard to train, but the skiddish nature that one puppy had from the beginning (which we ignored) ended up being a major problem. (As you might remember.) After we got the puppies and started going to obedience classes we got a lot of flack from trainers about getting litter mates. A lot of trainers really frown on that. So I would also consider that aspect before getting the dogs.

You might also give some consideration to getting a slightly older dog that will have a much more predictable temperament, and which also might already be house-trained.

I feel that certain points here need to be highlighted. Karen is very much right on with this. If you have no experience training a single dog you need to understand that training two can be 10x as hard. The dogs will bond with each other first and not you. This is a very difficult thing to work through. I can and has been done, but in your situation it is something you may not be able to do.

I wouldn't ever recommend sending two dogs puppies home to any home, much less a special needs home.

Edited to change dog to puppy, full trained dogs can be a little bit easier, but there is ALWAYS and adjustment period.

And so it is understood, I have experience training difficult breeds (Shiba Inu that I managed to title in AKC agility in both novice std and novice jumpers before having to retire, she was the 11th (std) and 22nd (jumpers) Shiba in the country to have ever been titled) I also worked as a behaviorist for a local animal shelter doing screening and temperament testing of the intake dogs. I also have a rescued husky that I have trained too.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Quote

I would definitely consult with as many people as possible before getting the dog(s).

I know from my family's experience that trying to train two litter mates at the same time can be very difficult. We got our puppies at the local humane society and couldn't bear leaving the last puppy of the litter alone in a kennel, so we ended up getting two. Well, it ended up having bad results. Not only were they hard to train, but the skiddish nature that one puppy had from the beginning (which we ignored) ended up being a major problem. (As you might remember.) After we got the puppies and started going to obedience classes we got a lot of flack from trainers about getting litter mates. A lot of trainers really frown on that. So I would also consider that aspect before getting the dogs.

You might also give some consideration to getting a slightly older dog that will have a much more predictable temperament, and which also might already be house-trained.

I hadn't heard that getting litter mates was a bad idea...thanks for the heads up!

I guess in all of the articles that I was reading, it wasn't ever assumed that you COULD get litter mates for Autism service dogs, as they are so rare to get your hands on just one of the buggers...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

The info I was reading also mentioned 'working' dogs vs family dogs, and how they will or will not interact with each other...

Curious that a few of these professional Autism Service Dog training companies vary IMMENSELY on their views of how these animals are to incorporate into the family structure. One says that the dogs should not be hugged and played with in the manner that you would play with a household dog, because the working dog has a job and is there to work. On his 'off-time', the working dog needs his exercise, and to run around and play, but to socialize him into the family would give him the wrong message and hinder him in performing his job...

One company says other household dogs are discouraged entirely.

Another company says that the dog grows a strong bond with the Autistic child, and should be allowed to develop that bond JUST with that child, and the rest of the family should back off...

And yet another I remember reading said the dog becomes a 'loving member of the family'.

Confusing.

Personally, I would think that the dog would perform at its best in its job if he had a strong bond/love for the child that he is helping...and I would think that in his 'off' time he could socialize and play with the family like any other dog? I woud think we could train him to be 'on duty' when he puts on his saddle and harness.

-Or is this just expecting too much?


And I did ask one of these services about getting just one dog to start with...one company said we'd only NEED one for both boys (are they nuts?! ) One company said the dog that's there first may not accept a second working dog...one place said it's fine but then you're having to wait for a second dog which could be a LONG while...

Hmm.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[eeneR 3]

The thing is, the dog needs to build a strong bond with the child. Most pets will always have the one person that they are bonded most to. Sometimes that is the Alpha in the house, sometimes it isn't.

I am not 100% sure on what is exactly expected of the service dog, but keep in mind that dogs can be trained to herd entire massive herds of Cows, sheep and all kind of other animals. Never underestimate them

Depending on the needs of the children and other dogs around can vary what can and cannot be done with family pets. Remember that these are living beings and dogs teach each other too. Good and bad habits. For ex. My dogs were never allowed to drink out of the toilet, and didn't. One day at my brothers house his St. Bernard who was allowed to did, and Dakota (Siberian Husky) watched and decided he was going to do that too

These dogs have a job to do. They will have a very special set of rules and requirements to keep them in the mindset they need to be. They are not a toy, though no dog is and every dog should have a "job". The people who train these awesome animals know exactly what is needed to maintain the dogs talents. Like with anything there always has to be a training and structure to maintain things.

Most of the time from my understanding is that once in harness the dog is "on duty" That is how it was for me and Nikki, once in the ring games stopped and it was time to work. But you have to understand like any athlete or well trained person, there has to be a specific structure set into place for this.

I would highly recommend getting on that waiting list, trying to do this on your own is going to waste more valuable time. I have put a few feelers out to my friends in the dog world to see if anyone knows anyone. But these dogs take time to "make" they start from puppy stage and are in a foster home till they are ready for the real hard core training. That is part why the lists are so long, they only bring dogs in as they are needed. There are only so many foster homes and so many trainers avail to do this, it is not an easy task.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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I would highly recommend getting on that waiting list, trying to do this on your own is going to waste more valuable time.

I know...it's not just the waiting list, though. It's also the $29,000 we have to raise for them to train 2 dogs for us, and then they don't have to guarantee that we can have a dog!!

That's the thing that kind of pisses me off...they get around the 501c(3) rules as a 'charity', and sure it's to the disabled persons benefit a LITTLE in that donations made to the dog organization FOR that particular disabled kid are tax deductible (if you can get MicroSoft or some big corp to pony up). However, since the money is 'donated' and the service dog is never actually 'PAID' for, the service is not required to ever train a dog that will work for you! They can STILL keep all of the money and you have no recourse. -One organization in Ohio gets shelter dogs, you pay $14,000 per dog (you have no choice for breed) then you have to fly the parents and kids out ( on your dime), stay there for 2 weeks (hotel accomodations on your dime) and if they happened to get some little dog like a freaking terrier for our boys and they don't work well together, it's too bad!

$29,000 for the dogs
$1000 at least for flights
$1400 minimum for hotels
2 weeks off of work for Joe and 2 weeks from school for the kids

$31,400...all our vacation time, and no guarantees.

I don't like gambling with all of that on the line.

I just wish this pain in the neck in Oregon would get an e-mail link that would work or post an actual phone number...

I thought crikey, there has GOT to be a trainer around here that we could pay a few thousand dollars to to train individual behaviors that we can't do ourselves...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[eeneR 3]

Just so you know, to train my dog to run agility on a novice level I spent probably 20 - 30 hours a week, $200 a month not including the gas and travel time over 2 years That wasn't for a service dog.

Dog training doesn't happen overnight it is a painstaking time consuming task. I am starting to think my dear you don't quite understand what is really involved.

Please understand that there is no cheep, fast easy way to get around this. There is a reason it is the way it is. This isn't something that you can have instant gratification on. Im sorry I wish I had a nice way to say this.

You bring a dog home, it will be probably 2 years before you can actually use it as a service dog ;) especially a puppy. 2 years old is when they are mature enough to be responsible in most cases but not all. So no matter what you are wasting 2 years...and if the dog(s) don't work out what do you do then? give them back? The service people will find it another home.

As for the time off, guess what. You need to be trained too...there isnt an owners manual and there sure as hell are rules you need to learn otherwise the dog will become useless.

I don't mean to be harsh, but I think you are missing some stuff involved with this.

Dogs take work period, service dog is the equivalent of a Elite Athlete...takes a lot of work to get to that level. Not cheep and time consuming. Someone has to pay for the first few years of the dogs life to be trained...vet costs, training, food etc.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[hollyhjb 0]

I think all of that is just insane! I raised three puppies for Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc. They only train dogs from their own breeding stock, they provide lots of care for their puppies, working, and retired dogs, and in the end they GIVE these dogs to the blind person for FREE. Granted GDB has been around for a long time, but still $29,000 is crazy.

I have worked with different "working" dogs, mainly guide dogs. Also, I worked with a few children with autism using ABA. I agree that trying to raise puppies is going to be way too challenging by yourself. Full gown dogs that already have basic training is going to be your best bet. I know that Guide Dogs adopts out dogs that don't work in their program (usually for things like minor problems), and I know tons of dogs that are now S&R or therapy dogs that used to be guide dogs. So try checking that type of place out for some adult dogs.

As for the socializing aspect, if the dog doesn't create a bond with the child I would be really concerned. There are definite rules that need to be followed so the dog "knows it's place." Things like only eating things out of its bowl, and not sleeping on the bed, are things that simply help the dog be more "trainable." The dog should be a part of the family, but it should never be above (in the dogs mind...think alpha male) anyone in the family, even the smallest kids. Also, these rules help them not to get too over protective of the child, because then they will be shielding the child from the world, which would obviously be counterproductive.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own" ~Adam Savage

[Katzeye 0]

A saying that rings true from my dog training days:

"Put a bunch of dog trainers in a room and the only thing they can agree on is that none of them can agree."

It's all subjective and depends on so many factors, environment, household dynamics, time, personality of trainer, personality of dog(s), personality of kid(s), the tangent of the moon, what type of bubble gum you're chewing and the list goes on and on...

Keep us posted how it works out!

Is a chicken omelette redundant?

[skycat 0]

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A saying that rings true from my dog training days:

"Put a bunch of dog trainers in a room and the only thing they can agree on is that none of them can agree."

LOL....so true, so very true. The only other quote from dog training that is worth it's salt is "You must be consistently consistent with your consistency."

Fly it like you stole it!