waltappel 1 #26 March 12, 2007 Quote I'm new to skydiving so I'm trying to find out if (like cars) some are more troublesome than others. I imagine there are some rigs that are more complicated and others that are more straightforward. I would like to know if there are some out there that people have noticed have the habit of catching on the main, not releasing the main and other such snags. It's an honest question from someone who wants to know if in addition to or inspite of jumpers error or lack thereof are there rigs that are less safe than others. Simple question. Jumpers with more experience than this newbie are welcome and urged to offer some insight. Ok, fair enough. As a consumer, you want to educate yourself. You probably should ask this in the gear and rigging forum, but I'll take a stab at it. I am approaching 30 years in the sport and have 1600+ skydives and 73 BASE jumps. I am not an expert, but I think I can give you an overview that may help. Sport skydiving started with people using military surplus gear. No problem with that, but the military's gear has a very different purpose than sport skydiving gear, so jumpers started making modifications to their surplus gear to adapt it to what they were using it for. As different skydiving disciplines developed and the sport's popularity increased, gear was developed specifically for sport use and that gear has evolved a great deal over the years. One of the lessons that was learned along the way is the importance of *standardization* of gear configuration. By that, I primarily mean location of the handles. Here's an example. When I started jumping, student jumps were made on military surplus gear--the main parachute was in a container on the jumper's back and the reserve was in a container mounted in front of the jumper's abdomen. The deployment system was either static line or a main ripcord and the main ripcord handle was on the right-side main lift web on the jumper's right side and the reserve ripcord handle was mostly on the right-side of the front-mounted reserve container. The sport gear at the time was still making the shift from two-point canopy releases to the single-point release, and hand-deployed pilot chutes started becoming common. The result was that there were plenty of different rig configurations and you had to learn each rig thoroughly before using it. Mostly, though, handles were gradually reaching a point where they were somewhat standardized--cutaway handle on the right main lift web, reserve handle on the left main lift web, and hand-deployed pilot chute mounted somewhere where the user could physically see the handle. During this period, a big deal was made when students transitioned from the military surplus gear to sport gear because the handle locations were different. One gear manufacturer reasoned that if the reserve handle were moved to the right-hand main lift web, then the transition would be easier because students were accustomed to the reserve handle being on the right side. The reasoning sounded great until someone went in. There were other gear issues along the way and a great deal was learned from it. Those lessons have been incorporated into virtually all rigs on the market today. The result is that pretty much any rig you buy will be safe. The main canopy releases are standardized, the cutaway and reserve ripcord handle locations are standardized. The quality is also there in today's rigs. It's really nice. The main thing you need to look for in a harness and container system is a good fit and suitability for the kind of jumping you will be doing. As far as the main canopy goes, start with a canopy that has relatively docile handling characteristics and learn to fly it before you go to higher-performance canopies. Your reserve should be large enough to get enable you to land safely, even if it is in a fairly tight landing area. There is a great deal more to this, but what I'm trying to say is that gear is sufficiently advanced that labelling any gear as inherently unsafe is not being realistic. It's the jumper that makes the difference. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #27 March 12, 2007 QuoteThank you for your answer. Finally someone who took the question seriously It's not that nobody is taking your question seriously--it's more a case that you are asking the wrong question in the wrong forum. Try asking this in the gear and rigging forum or the general skydiving forum: "Being new to the sport, can someone please tell me the kind of gear choices that are available and what I should be looking for? I want to stay safe!" Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #28 March 12, 2007 And you could fill out your profile a little better. In the end, it's not the brand of gear that gets you, it's how you choose it and how you use it. Don't downsize too fast. That's the most popular way of getting killed these days. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pinkfairy 0 #29 March 12, 2007 What gear people choose has a lot to do with what their friends choose and what is popular at the DZ. Where I jump, there are mainly two brands of rigs that are popular, the really expensive one, and the low cost one. I'm getting the low cost one, as I've got no reason to believe that it will be any less safe than the expensive one for my type of jumping, and I know a lot of other jumpers who are very happy with it. Brand loyalty is strong in the skydiving world, it seems.Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pinkfairy 0 #30 March 12, 2007 QuoteEveryone knows that all you have to do is get an AAD on your rig and you'll never die. Walt Wow! Finally the key to eternal life! Thanks, Walt! Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #31 March 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteEveryone knows that all you have to do is get an AAD on your rig and you'll never die. Walt Wow! Finally the key to eternal life! Thanks, Walt! I thought it was bounce proofing your log bookYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #32 March 12, 2007 QuoteI thought it was bounce proofing your log book What's that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #33 March 12, 2007 QuoteWhich rigs have most people died or been injured in? Black ones!! Definately Black Ones are the most dangerous. I personally think Pink Rigs are the safest!! They are much easier to see. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #34 March 12, 2007 QuoteDoes anyone know which rigs had been used when most fatalities have occured, Apparently it would be the "perfectly good rig with an open, non-malfunctioning canopy" rig. It's a very popular brand. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Honeybee 0 #35 March 12, 2007 QuoteWhere I jump, there are mainly two brands of rigs that are popular, the really expensive one, and the low cost one. I'm getting the low cost one... I know a lot of other jumpers who are very happy with it. So which brand is the inexpensive one you are going to buy? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #36 March 12, 2007 I feel pretty safe saying that there are not any 'unsafe' rigs on the market. Its more important to find a rig that fits you well. If you buy a used rig, your rigger should take a thorough look at it and let you know of any repairs it needs. If you're looking for experienced jumper's opinions, here's mine. I jump an Infinity. I like the clean lines and the simplicity of the design. I also like way the pack tray closes. My second choice would be a Vector. I like the complete bridal coverage.. good design for freeflying. My third choice would be a Wings. I like the articulated harness and the clean design. So theres one opinion. There are a lot more things to consider though. So talk to your instructors, talk to packers on the dz.. they see LOTS of rigs. And demo whatever you have access to. But to answer your original question.. I can't say I've ever read the incidents forum and said "oh no, someone else went in wearing XXX." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pinkfairy 0 #37 March 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteEveryone knows that all you have to do is get an AAD on your rig and you'll never die. Walt Wow! Finally the key to eternal life! Thanks, Walt! I thought it was bounce proofing your log book OK, so if I get an AAD _and_ get my log book bounce proofed (I suppose I need a senior rigger for that?), then I will live forever. I mean like in "never dying". As you said in the post about AADs. Wow this is sensational, just wait till the press finds out! Oh, c'mon, this is the bonfire after all, and I did post a serious reply too... Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pinkfairy 0 #38 March 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteWhere I jump, there are mainly two brands of rigs that are popular, the really expensive one, and the low cost one. I'm getting the low cost one... I know a lot of other jumpers who are very happy with it. So which brand is the inexpensive one you are going to buy? Maybe you should send me a PM about that, as the forum rules are quite clear about advertising. As mentioned before in this thread: Open, flying canopy and top of the line gear is no guarantee for a safe landing. Most rigs on the market today are good for both freeflying and belly flying, and you are the most dangerous part of your equipment.Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #39 March 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteEveryone knows that all you have to do is get an AAD on your rig and you'll never die. Walt Wow! Finally the key to eternal life! Thanks, Walt! I thought it was bounce proofing your log book OK, so if I get an AAD _and_ get my log book bounce proofed (I suppose I need a senior rigger for that?), then I will live forever. I mean like in "never dying". As you said in the post about AADs. Wow this is sensational, just wait till the press finds out! Oh, c'mon, this is the bonfire after all, and I did post a serious reply too... Absolutely. That is what I have done. . . . The secrert is to never log anything more into the bounce proofed log book . . . that way you never use it up!I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #40 March 12, 2007 QuoteMaybe you should send me a PM about that, as the forum rules are quite clear about advertising. -Why, are you a dealer? If you're not making money off of it it's not advertising. We talk about stuff we buy on these forums all the time. Edit: It doesn't matter anyways. This is the wrong forum entirely; I'm kind of surprised it hasn't been moved yet.~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pinkfairy 0 #41 March 12, 2007 Quote Absolutely. That is what I have done. . . . The secrert is to never log anything more into the bounce proofed log book . . . that way you never use it up! OK, this will keep me safe from dying from cancer or getting run over by a streetcar or blood poisoning from a bad tooth too? Great! Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sioux 0 #42 March 12, 2007 If I buy the safest car on the planet (with an AAD, of course), and drive it off a cliff, will I live? I haven't seen such convoluted lines of conversation and such expert chronicling thereof since my days of all day bong marathons in college. ~ Lindercles Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #43 March 12, 2007 Quote Go talk to your instructors at your DZ. Thy can explain the differences between different rigs (For the most part they are cosmetic differences only). They can also explain all the advantages or disadantages of each. They'll explain their opinions which will probably contain inaccuracies (some people have especially interesting ideas about pop-tops) and local biases. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #44 March 12, 2007 QuoteIf I buy the safest car on the planet (with an AAD, of course), and drive it off a cliff, will I live? Almost certainly--until you hit the ground, of course! Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #45 March 12, 2007 An individuals beer karma will determine their longevity in the sport more so than any gear decision. Ah, gear and beer rhyme! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pinkfairy 0 #46 March 12, 2007 Some instructors will actually only recommend Mirages. Really. I had an instructor like thatRelax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet. I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #47 March 12, 2007 QuoteSome instructors will actually only recommend Mirages. Really. I had an instructor like that That's ridiculous--everyone knows that the Racer is the only rig worth considering! Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #48 March 12, 2007 Actually, Racers have killed many a skydiver . . . . . . 's sex appeal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #49 March 12, 2007 Pretty much any ones that are flown inappropriately! Rigs dont kill people, people kill people. ..... Oh, and clowns (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpjunkie 0 #50 March 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteSome instructors will actually only recommend Mirages. Really. I had an instructor like that That's ridiculous--everyone knows that the Racer is the only rig worth considering! Walt And there it is. In less than 50 posts. The 'Racer is best' comment. I'll bring a cookie for you this weekend at Temple as your prize Walt. Tubing, so easy a caveman can do it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
