Newbie 0 #1 November 1, 2006 Thinking about getting on for my next rig. I will be freeflying in it. Has anyone out there had any bad experiences with this rig? My research has led me to find that the main flaps have been a problem in the past, particularly when people are using canopy sizes bigger or smaller than what the rig was designed for. Is this still the case? Are there any downsides to this rig (other than high cost)? What does "K Series" actually mean? (this is what Sunpath have on their website as being the latest model). I tried on my mates and the deluxe padding plus the cut in lats made for a level of comfort that is hard to pass up. I'd be grateful if you could provide your thoughts, good and bad. Cheers "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #2 November 1, 2006 To help with part of your question... Back when I bought my Javelin, about 3 - 4 years ago, I aksed Sunpath what the "K" meant too. Basically, it means its their newer design for their containers... i.e. a J3K is newer (slightly different / upgraded) then a J3. Things like the riser / shoulder tuck flaps have changed (gotten bigger) and the tuck flaps on the reserve flap that coverst the pin have changed (no longer possible for a "death tuck" where you get it tucked under the reserve cap AND top reserve flap as well as it tucks into the slot at the top of the second / bottom reserve flap... if that all makes any sense... easier to show then explain). Anyway, yes, they're pricey... ... but what rig isn't from the Big-3 these days... Sunpath, R.I. and what ever Mr. Booth is calling the RWS these days. I still see some Javs where the top reserve flap pin cover doesn't want to stay tucked into the bottom reserve flap and to a lesser degree ones where the main tuck flap doesn't want to stay closed... usually on the same rig and I'd say canopy choice in those rigs is a factor in this. What I haven't seen lately is the shoulder tucks coming undone on the newer Javs like used to be a bigger problem on the older ones where the shoulder tucks were smaller... i.e. had less ass to them. ... anyway, just my 2 cents. Keep asking questions and happy rig hunting!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #3 November 1, 2006 Have you ever considered an Infinity rig by Velocity Sports? There design is awsome with incredible pin protection and secondary riser covers. They have incredible customer service. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #4 November 1, 2006 Hello, I just wanted to give some insight I have about the Odyssey. I currently jump an OJK which was manufactured in 2003. I absolutely love the rig in all aspects. I have never had any flaps open on me whatsoever. I feel completely comfortable jumping the rig. Please note that I do not currently freefly yet...so I may not be subjecting it to what you will be. One thing I do know is that the container pockets on Javelins are very snug. The corners "hug" the d-bag very tightly. For me, this is contributing to a PCIT on subterminal jumps. Otherwise...100%! Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #5 November 1, 2006 "K" stands for Kurz ("short" in german). K series Javs are shorter top to bottom, but taller off your back at the main container than previous versions of the same size. Smaller Javs with longer yokes (C's and D's) and properly sized canopies have no problem with flaps coming open. It's the larger rigs where things get "flappy." A-yoke rigs have very short tuck tabs and are prone to coming undone and flapping. While you might equate A-yokes with only very-small girl rigs, all of the Javelins with adjustable harnesses (mostly student Javelins) have those short A-yokes and they all flap. Also, All of the larger Javelins I have ever seen which have larger canopies in them are prone to main pin-cover flappage. I like Javs (I have owned three, all very-small and "flap free"), but every single student rig we had at Raeford had flappy riser covers and main pin covers. They were ordered specifically for the size mains and reserves which are in them, so yes, they should stayed closed. The short riser covers were the worst problem. Once again though, if you are getting a small rig, it's got at least a "C" yoke, and the canopies fit snugly, then you won't have any problems. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #6 November 1, 2006 Quote One thing I do know is that the container pockets on Javelins are very snug. The corners "hug" the d-bag very tightly. For me, this is contributing to a PCIT on subterminal jumps. Otherwise...100%! Even at hop n' pop speeds a properly functioning PC produces quite a lot of force, so you might want to have a rigger take a look at that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #7 November 1, 2006 This past summer, the French issued a Service Bulletin requiring shortening the plastic stiffener in the top reserve flap (the flap that the RSL and ripcord pin lay on). This a complex procedure requiring a double-needle sewing machine with a folder for binding tape and a Master Rigger. Older Javelins had an inch or so of "hinge" (i.e. fabric but no plastic stiffener), while the latest Javelin Oddesseys continue the plastic all the way up into the binding tape at the top edge of the flap. The French believe the new configuration can cause hesitations. Sun Path does not. Only time will tell who is correct. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #8 November 1, 2006 Hey Justin, I made sure to say "contributed" to the problem. Trust me, I've had discussions on here about the PCIT, and with my riggers. My rig is sized right for the canopies I have in there. We came to the conclusion that I have a couple problems. Bridle is a bit short, PC is slightly too small, bag is tight, and I am light. That whole combination caused a PCIT. Never happens at Terminal though. I have my deploymeny on video, and had 3 instructors watch me. No one believed me, but it was happening, anywhere from 3-6 seconds roughly. It happens on about 80% of all H&P's I do. A little scary! Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jheadley 0 #9 November 1, 2006 I have an odyssey and nothing has ever come open in freefall, in any orientation. It is a C yoke though so like SM1 said that could be why. Everything just fits very nicely. With the older Javelins, and the student javelins, the main flap and riser flaps do come open a lot. I don't know about the really small ones, I haven't noticed a problem on those. I actually really like the dimensions of everything on the TJNK more than any other size. I believe a lot of why the reserve flap and riser covers come open on javelins is because of the way the reserve is packed, and it's size. I've always thought the Javelin main flap (properly sized) felt a lot more secure than the other way that's on Vectors, Wings, etc.. There's actually a picture in this month's parachutist of a guy with a Vector 3 with his main flap open. It sort of seems to me like the upward closing flap may be better protection in freefall from the wind, but it seems like they sort of "stick out" a little bit, and the flatter, wider, low profile javelin style protects more from being knocked or bumped in the plane. /opinion Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #10 November 2, 2006 QuoteHey Justin, I made sure to say "contributed" to the problem. Trust me, I've had discussions on here about the PCIT, and with my riggers. My rig is sized right for the canopies I have in there. We came to the conclusion that I have a couple problems. Bridle is a bit short, PC is slightly too small, bag is tight, and I am light. That whole combination caused a PCIT. Never happens at Terminal though. I have my deploymeny on video, and had 3 instructors watch me. No one believed me, but it was happening, anywhere from 3-6 seconds roughly. It happens on about 80% of all H&P's I do. A little scary! Chris maybe all you need is a new PC? I was told not to get anything under 26" no matter what the main is. I get one (PC) every 500 jumps, to avoid the problem for sure... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jumpah 0 #11 November 3, 2006 I received a new J4.5 in the beginning of Sept and have about 80 jumps on it. The 4.5 is built for a 210 main, and my 190 Saber fits into the D bag loosly and into the container tightly. I also got the spacer foam in the back and leg straps along with the articulation...very happy with it, especially on high altitude hop and pops. Sand on the packing mat tends to get stuck in the spacer foam. It brushes out easy enough, but I bought a packing mat. With sizing, contact Sunpath before placing the order. Although sunpath's website lists a J4.5 for "up to a 210", when I queried them on this (after I received the container) they said its designed for a 190 or a 210. I bought it thinking I could get a 170 in comfortably...and maybe I can safely. Regardless, I like having a 193 reserve and I'm a ways from downsizing anyway. I've had no problems with the rig. I haven't done much freeflying in it, though...maybe 20 jumps. Everything is where it should be throughout the jump. The pilot chute that came with it is huge...easily the largest PC in the packing area at any given point of time. The bag gets pulled out with some gusto... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #12 November 3, 2006 maybe all you need is a new PC? I was told not to get anything under 26" no matter what the main is. I get one (PC) every 500 jumps, to avoid the problem for sure... rm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 24" and 26" pilot chutes were really designed for canopies in the 100 square foot range and lack the drag to lift larger and heavier canopies (i.e. 190). Most sport jumpers are better off with 28" or 30" pilot chutes. In comparison, many schools still use 36" pilot chutes to lift - heavy - Mantas off students' backs at low airspeeds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #3 November 1, 2006 Have you ever considered an Infinity rig by Velocity Sports? There design is awsome with incredible pin protection and secondary riser covers. They have incredible customer service. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #4 November 1, 2006 Hello, I just wanted to give some insight I have about the Odyssey. I currently jump an OJK which was manufactured in 2003. I absolutely love the rig in all aspects. I have never had any flaps open on me whatsoever. I feel completely comfortable jumping the rig. Please note that I do not currently freefly yet...so I may not be subjecting it to what you will be. One thing I do know is that the container pockets on Javelins are very snug. The corners "hug" the d-bag very tightly. For me, this is contributing to a PCIT on subterminal jumps. Otherwise...100%! Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #5 November 1, 2006 "K" stands for Kurz ("short" in german). K series Javs are shorter top to bottom, but taller off your back at the main container than previous versions of the same size. Smaller Javs with longer yokes (C's and D's) and properly sized canopies have no problem with flaps coming open. It's the larger rigs where things get "flappy." A-yoke rigs have very short tuck tabs and are prone to coming undone and flapping. While you might equate A-yokes with only very-small girl rigs, all of the Javelins with adjustable harnesses (mostly student Javelins) have those short A-yokes and they all flap. Also, All of the larger Javelins I have ever seen which have larger canopies in them are prone to main pin-cover flappage. I like Javs (I have owned three, all very-small and "flap free"), but every single student rig we had at Raeford had flappy riser covers and main pin covers. They were ordered specifically for the size mains and reserves which are in them, so yes, they should stayed closed. The short riser covers were the worst problem. Once again though, if you are getting a small rig, it's got at least a "C" yoke, and the canopies fit snugly, then you won't have any problems. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #6 November 1, 2006 Quote One thing I do know is that the container pockets on Javelins are very snug. The corners "hug" the d-bag very tightly. For me, this is contributing to a PCIT on subterminal jumps. Otherwise...100%! Even at hop n' pop speeds a properly functioning PC produces quite a lot of force, so you might want to have a rigger take a look at that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #7 November 1, 2006 This past summer, the French issued a Service Bulletin requiring shortening the plastic stiffener in the top reserve flap (the flap that the RSL and ripcord pin lay on). This a complex procedure requiring a double-needle sewing machine with a folder for binding tape and a Master Rigger. Older Javelins had an inch or so of "hinge" (i.e. fabric but no plastic stiffener), while the latest Javelin Oddesseys continue the plastic all the way up into the binding tape at the top edge of the flap. The French believe the new configuration can cause hesitations. Sun Path does not. Only time will tell who is correct. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #8 November 1, 2006 Hey Justin, I made sure to say "contributed" to the problem. Trust me, I've had discussions on here about the PCIT, and with my riggers. My rig is sized right for the canopies I have in there. We came to the conclusion that I have a couple problems. Bridle is a bit short, PC is slightly too small, bag is tight, and I am light. That whole combination caused a PCIT. Never happens at Terminal though. I have my deploymeny on video, and had 3 instructors watch me. No one believed me, but it was happening, anywhere from 3-6 seconds roughly. It happens on about 80% of all H&P's I do. A little scary! Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jheadley 0 #9 November 1, 2006 I have an odyssey and nothing has ever come open in freefall, in any orientation. It is a C yoke though so like SM1 said that could be why. Everything just fits very nicely. With the older Javelins, and the student javelins, the main flap and riser flaps do come open a lot. I don't know about the really small ones, I haven't noticed a problem on those. I actually really like the dimensions of everything on the TJNK more than any other size. I believe a lot of why the reserve flap and riser covers come open on javelins is because of the way the reserve is packed, and it's size. I've always thought the Javelin main flap (properly sized) felt a lot more secure than the other way that's on Vectors, Wings, etc.. There's actually a picture in this month's parachutist of a guy with a Vector 3 with his main flap open. It sort of seems to me like the upward closing flap may be better protection in freefall from the wind, but it seems like they sort of "stick out" a little bit, and the flatter, wider, low profile javelin style protects more from being knocked or bumped in the plane. /opinion Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #10 November 2, 2006 QuoteHey Justin, I made sure to say "contributed" to the problem. Trust me, I've had discussions on here about the PCIT, and with my riggers. My rig is sized right for the canopies I have in there. We came to the conclusion that I have a couple problems. Bridle is a bit short, PC is slightly too small, bag is tight, and I am light. That whole combination caused a PCIT. Never happens at Terminal though. I have my deploymeny on video, and had 3 instructors watch me. No one believed me, but it was happening, anywhere from 3-6 seconds roughly. It happens on about 80% of all H&P's I do. A little scary! Chris maybe all you need is a new PC? I was told not to get anything under 26" no matter what the main is. I get one (PC) every 500 jumps, to avoid the problem for sure... rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumpah 0 #11 November 3, 2006 I received a new J4.5 in the beginning of Sept and have about 80 jumps on it. The 4.5 is built for a 210 main, and my 190 Saber fits into the D bag loosly and into the container tightly. I also got the spacer foam in the back and leg straps along with the articulation...very happy with it, especially on high altitude hop and pops. Sand on the packing mat tends to get stuck in the spacer foam. It brushes out easy enough, but I bought a packing mat. With sizing, contact Sunpath before placing the order. Although sunpath's website lists a J4.5 for "up to a 210", when I queried them on this (after I received the container) they said its designed for a 190 or a 210. I bought it thinking I could get a 170 in comfortably...and maybe I can safely. Regardless, I like having a 193 reserve and I'm a ways from downsizing anyway. I've had no problems with the rig. I haven't done much freeflying in it, though...maybe 20 jumps. Everything is where it should be throughout the jump. The pilot chute that came with it is huge...easily the largest PC in the packing area at any given point of time. The bag gets pulled out with some gusto... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #12 November 3, 2006 maybe all you need is a new PC? I was told not to get anything under 26" no matter what the main is. I get one (PC) every 500 jumps, to avoid the problem for sure... rm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 24" and 26" pilot chutes were really designed for canopies in the 100 square foot range and lack the drag to lift larger and heavier canopies (i.e. 190). Most sport jumpers are better off with 28" or 30" pilot chutes. In comparison, many schools still use 36" pilot chutes to lift - heavy - Mantas off students' backs at low airspeeds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mostly_Harmless 0 #13 November 6, 2006 Over 200 FF jumps and no issues at all. It fits me like a glove and I feel like I am sitting in a lazy boy under canopy._________________________________________ www.myspace.com/termvelocity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
