MikeD10834 0 #1 October 27, 2006 Howdy... I'm looking for someone to change my chest strap from type 17 to type 8 webbing and my local rigger has no desire to do harness work. Can anyone out there recommend someone within a reasonable driving distance from Winston Salem NC? Any ideas as to what kind of costs would be associated with this? Any help would be appreciated and of course, TIA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,455 #2 October 27, 2006 Contact Rigging Solutions LLC in Chester, SC. Jerry PS) Just for you, Gus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marinho 0 #3 October 27, 2006 Thanks Jerry, I appreciated it! Mike, I hate to offer our services on the forums. I don't think is professional. If you think we are close enough from your place, please contact us at anytime. You can even come this weekend, wait & watch the work and make a skydive at our DZ. Our service department address is: 502 Cessna Drive Chester, SC 29706 Email: sales@riggingsolutions.us Another option is John Lyman from Carolina Sky Sports. His address is: 6966 Nc 56 Hwy Franklinton, NC 27525-9691 Email:cssriggers@earthlink.net Let us know if we can help you. Cheers,Gus Marinho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #4 October 28, 2006 QuoteThanks Jerry, I appreciated it! Mike, I hate to offer our services on the forums. I don't think is professional. If you think we are close enough from your place, please contact us at anytime. You can even come this weekend, wait & watch the work and make a skydive at our DZ. Our service department address is: 502 Cessna Drive Chester, SC 29706 Email: sales@riggingsolutions.us Another option is John Lyman from Carolina Sky Sports. His address is: 6966 Nc 56 Hwy Franklinton, NC 27525-9691 Email:cssriggers@earthlink.net Let us know if we can help you. Cheers, THAT, was a very classy thing to do, well done!! Kudos!! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marinho 0 #5 October 28, 2006 QuoteTHAT, was a very classy thing to do, well done!! Kudos!! Mick. Thanks Mick for your kind words! Cheers,Gus Marinho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deadwood 0 #6 October 28, 2006 In my way of thinking, this is an alteration. Any alternation must be first approved by the mfg or the FAA. After approval, then a master rigger can perform the work.He who hesitates shall inherit the earth. Deadwood Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,455 #7 October 28, 2006 Hi deadwood, QuoteIn my way of thinking, this is an alteration. Any alternation must be first approved by the mfg or the FAA. After approval, then a master rigger can perform the work. I do NOT want to get into an arguement but if the rig is offered both ways (most are) then I would think that it would be merely bringing it up to another legal standard. Sort of like putting a Vector II pilot chute into a Vector I; but somewhat different. Thoughts??? Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #8 October 28, 2006 QuoteHi deadwood, QuoteIn my way of thinking, this is an alteration. Any alternation must be first approved by the mfg or the FAA. After approval, then a master rigger can perform the work. I do NOT want to get into an arguement but if the rig is offered both ways (most are) then I would think that it would be merely bringing it up to another legal standard. Sort of like putting a Vector II pilot chute into a Vector I; but somewhat different. Thoughts??? Jerry ________________________________ I think, you are right. Since most harness-containers are offered either way, I don't see where, the term 'alteration' would apply. If, I recall correctly, an alteration pertains to the opening or flight of a parachute. It's a chest strap and the job, done correctly, would not alter the opening or flight of a parachute. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #9 October 28, 2006 Quote In my way of thinking, this is an alteration. Any alternation must be first approved by the mfg or the FAA. After approval, then a master rigger can perform the work. You are correct in your thinking! An alteration is defined as any change from it's original configuration ( the way it came from the manufacturer) AC 105-2C Paragraph 8 From FAR 105: All components of the approved auxiliary parachute must meet all the airworthiness and performance standards as stipulated in TSO C-23. Auxiliary parachutes may be altered only as specifically authorized by the Administrator or the manufacturer (FAR § 65.129(d)). B. Examples of alterations made to the auxiliary pack include: • Addition of a deployment “diaper” • Moving of the chest strap up or down for parachutist’s comfort • Installation of an automatic activation device (AAD) So, if simply moving the same strap up or down is considered an alteration, changing the type of it would also be an alteration. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MikeD10834 0 #10 October 28, 2006 Everyone, Many thanks for the responses and PM's, much appreciated. And Gus, I'll second the Kudo's to ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #11 October 28, 2006 My take - on the FARs - is that a Master Rigger may change the chest strap IF the final product resembles a factory pattern. If they final product will not resemble a factory pattern, then it is an alteration that requires additional approval. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #12 October 28, 2006 Rob, I think it is pretty much black and white here.....! Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #13 October 28, 2006 Question on the clarification here... does just putting a Cypres into a container require a Master rigger to do it? The way the FAR's are worded it sure seems like it. I know they ment to imply the whole sewing of the channels, pocket, etc but its worded as just "Installation".Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #14 October 29, 2006 Eric, If the H/C assembly already has the provisions for a specific AAD( Channels, mounts, etc), a Senior rigger can install it. The part in FAR 105 (Not AC 105-2C) is assuming the H/C has no provisions for an AAD. Further clarification is located in AC 105-2C and also in the inspector's handbook. BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #15 October 29, 2006 QuoteIf the H/C assembly already has the provisions for a specific AAD( Channels, mounts, etc), a Senior rigger can install it. The expression used in the rigging profession is "an assembly of components". The words 'install' & 'assemble' have specific technical meanings for riggers; there are subtle differences from their common usage which tend to generate confusion for riggers and non-riggers alike."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #16 October 30, 2006 QuoteQuestion on the clarification here... does just putting a Cypres into a container require a Master rigger to do it? The way the FAR's are worded it sure seems like it. I know they meant to imply the whole sewing of the channels, pocket, etc but its worded as just "Installation". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Two separate issues here. The issues are so diverse that they confused the FAA a few years back. A rigger almost lost his license. Part of the problem is that the FAA tends to use the word "assemble" as noun (i.e. a Cypres is an "assembly"), where most riggers use "assemble" as a verb (i.e. assemble component A into component B). If a rig is already Cypres-ready, then any rigger - who is familiar with Cypres - may "insert" (my wording) a Cypres. Hint, most rigs built during the last decade (-ish) are Cypres-ready. The second issue involves "Cypres retrofits" (again, my wording). In the USA, a rigger may sew "Cypres retrofits/updates" into older rigs, provided he/she is approved by Airtec (Cypres factory). Meanwhile, Airtec (Cypres factory) insists that only Airtec-approved riggers may sew in Cypres retrofit kits. May I remind you that the FARs always defer to "manufacturers' instructions." Ergo, if a rigger sews in a Cypres retrofit kit - without Airtec approval - they are violating FARs. Following the same logic, you should probably have approval from the container manufacturer when sewing in Cypres retrofit kits. This is a grey area. My interpretation of the FARs says that "Cypres retrofits" are an "alteration" to the reserve container, ergo, can only be done by a Master Rigger. However, there are other American riggers who claim that Senior Riggers can sew in Cypres retrofits. I disagree with them. The issue is simpler in Canada, because only CSPA Rigger Bs are allowed to use sewing machines, ergo only Rigger Bs can sew in Cypres retrofit kits. In a few more years this whole argument will be academic because pre-Cypres rigs will all have been converted or worn out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,455 #17 October 30, 2006 Hi Rob, QuoteIn a few more years this whole argument will be academic because pre-Cypres rigs will all have been converted or worn out. Or better yet (IMO), we will get the FAA out of regulating parachutes and have something like you have in Canada. Then and only then will common sense prevail. Ever met an FAA man familiar with parachutes? Ever get a written response from the FAA that was really clear? Just my old $0.02, Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #18 October 30, 2006 Quote The second issue involves "Cypres retrofits" (again, my wording). In the USA, a rigger may sew "Cypres retrofits/updates" into older rigs, provided he/she is approved by Airtec (Cypres factory). Meanwhile, Airtec (Cypres factory) insists that only Airtec-approved riggers may sew in Cypres retrofit kits. Rob, Only a master rigger or the manufacturer may install a cypres kit into a rig; i.e. make a rig Cypres ready! The TSO holder(Rig Manufacturer) and the FAA only the only ones that may dictate how and who may install the AAD. The information regarding the above is located in AC 105-2C (Paragraph 2). Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #19 October 30, 2006 Quote Or better yet (IMO), we will get the FAA out of regulating parachutes and have something like you have in Canada. Then and only then will common sense prevail. Jerry, Gone are the days of jumping with non-TSO'd gear and the FAR's not being complied with. At one time, everyone was building rigs in their basements until a couple of manufacturer's got their gear TSO'd. The new TSO owners then squealed on the ones that did not have a TSO. That started the enforcement of the FAR's to some extent. It (FAR compliance) has been growing ever since and is not going away anytime soon. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marinho 0 #20 October 31, 2006 QuoteIn my way of thinking, this is an alteration. Any alternation must be first approved by the mfg or the FAA. After approval, then a master rigger can perform the work. Hi Rich, I understand where you come from, but on this specific case, this is not an alteration! Cheers,Gus Marinho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrigger1 2 #21 October 31, 2006 Quote Hi Rich, I understand where you come from, but on this specific case, this is not an alteration! Cheers, Gus, It is by the FAR's wording. Local Inspectors sometimes may see it or interpret it differently that it is worded. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites deadwood 0 #22 November 1, 2006 If you are doing the work, it's up to you to determine that. If, after researching it, thats what you determine, then go for it.He who hesitates shall inherit the earth. Deadwood Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marinho 0 #23 November 1, 2006 QuoteIf you are doing the work, it's up to you to determine that. If, after researching it, thats what you determine, then go for it. Hi Rich & Mel, Please, contact Ankie at Sunrise Rigging, the manufacturer of the wings container, and ask if this work is an alteration!!! Their number is (813) 780-7369 or info@skydivewings.com Have a great day!Gus Marinho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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JerryBaumchen 1,455 #2 October 27, 2006 Contact Rigging Solutions LLC in Chester, SC. Jerry PS) Just for you, Gus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marinho 0 #3 October 27, 2006 Thanks Jerry, I appreciated it! Mike, I hate to offer our services on the forums. I don't think is professional. If you think we are close enough from your place, please contact us at anytime. You can even come this weekend, wait & watch the work and make a skydive at our DZ. Our service department address is: 502 Cessna Drive Chester, SC 29706 Email: sales@riggingsolutions.us Another option is John Lyman from Carolina Sky Sports. His address is: 6966 Nc 56 Hwy Franklinton, NC 27525-9691 Email:cssriggers@earthlink.net Let us know if we can help you. Cheers,Gus Marinho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #4 October 28, 2006 QuoteThanks Jerry, I appreciated it! Mike, I hate to offer our services on the forums. I don't think is professional. If you think we are close enough from your place, please contact us at anytime. You can even come this weekend, wait & watch the work and make a skydive at our DZ. Our service department address is: 502 Cessna Drive Chester, SC 29706 Email: sales@riggingsolutions.us Another option is John Lyman from Carolina Sky Sports. His address is: 6966 Nc 56 Hwy Franklinton, NC 27525-9691 Email:cssriggers@earthlink.net Let us know if we can help you. Cheers, THAT, was a very classy thing to do, well done!! Kudos!! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marinho 0 #5 October 28, 2006 QuoteTHAT, was a very classy thing to do, well done!! Kudos!! Mick. Thanks Mick for your kind words! Cheers,Gus Marinho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deadwood 0 #6 October 28, 2006 In my way of thinking, this is an alteration. Any alternation must be first approved by the mfg or the FAA. After approval, then a master rigger can perform the work.He who hesitates shall inherit the earth. Deadwood Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,455 #7 October 28, 2006 Hi deadwood, QuoteIn my way of thinking, this is an alteration. Any alternation must be first approved by the mfg or the FAA. After approval, then a master rigger can perform the work. I do NOT want to get into an arguement but if the rig is offered both ways (most are) then I would think that it would be merely bringing it up to another legal standard. Sort of like putting a Vector II pilot chute into a Vector I; but somewhat different. Thoughts??? Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #8 October 28, 2006 QuoteHi deadwood, QuoteIn my way of thinking, this is an alteration. Any alternation must be first approved by the mfg or the FAA. After approval, then a master rigger can perform the work. I do NOT want to get into an arguement but if the rig is offered both ways (most are) then I would think that it would be merely bringing it up to another legal standard. Sort of like putting a Vector II pilot chute into a Vector I; but somewhat different. Thoughts??? Jerry ________________________________ I think, you are right. Since most harness-containers are offered either way, I don't see where, the term 'alteration' would apply. If, I recall correctly, an alteration pertains to the opening or flight of a parachute. It's a chest strap and the job, done correctly, would not alter the opening or flight of a parachute. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #9 October 28, 2006 Quote In my way of thinking, this is an alteration. Any alternation must be first approved by the mfg or the FAA. After approval, then a master rigger can perform the work. You are correct in your thinking! An alteration is defined as any change from it's original configuration ( the way it came from the manufacturer) AC 105-2C Paragraph 8 From FAR 105: All components of the approved auxiliary parachute must meet all the airworthiness and performance standards as stipulated in TSO C-23. Auxiliary parachutes may be altered only as specifically authorized by the Administrator or the manufacturer (FAR § 65.129(d)). B. Examples of alterations made to the auxiliary pack include: • Addition of a deployment “diaper” • Moving of the chest strap up or down for parachutist’s comfort • Installation of an automatic activation device (AAD) So, if simply moving the same strap up or down is considered an alteration, changing the type of it would also be an alteration. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD10834 0 #10 October 28, 2006 Everyone, Many thanks for the responses and PM's, much appreciated. And Gus, I'll second the Kudo's to ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 October 28, 2006 My take - on the FARs - is that a Master Rigger may change the chest strap IF the final product resembles a factory pattern. If they final product will not resemble a factory pattern, then it is an alteration that requires additional approval. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #12 October 28, 2006 Rob, I think it is pretty much black and white here.....! Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #13 October 28, 2006 Question on the clarification here... does just putting a Cypres into a container require a Master rigger to do it? The way the FAR's are worded it sure seems like it. I know they ment to imply the whole sewing of the channels, pocket, etc but its worded as just "Installation".Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #14 October 29, 2006 Eric, If the H/C assembly already has the provisions for a specific AAD( Channels, mounts, etc), a Senior rigger can install it. The part in FAR 105 (Not AC 105-2C) is assuming the H/C has no provisions for an AAD. Further clarification is located in AC 105-2C and also in the inspector's handbook. BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #15 October 29, 2006 QuoteIf the H/C assembly already has the provisions for a specific AAD( Channels, mounts, etc), a Senior rigger can install it. The expression used in the rigging profession is "an assembly of components". The words 'install' & 'assemble' have specific technical meanings for riggers; there are subtle differences from their common usage which tend to generate confusion for riggers and non-riggers alike."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #16 October 30, 2006 QuoteQuestion on the clarification here... does just putting a Cypres into a container require a Master rigger to do it? The way the FAR's are worded it sure seems like it. I know they meant to imply the whole sewing of the channels, pocket, etc but its worded as just "Installation". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Two separate issues here. The issues are so diverse that they confused the FAA a few years back. A rigger almost lost his license. Part of the problem is that the FAA tends to use the word "assemble" as noun (i.e. a Cypres is an "assembly"), where most riggers use "assemble" as a verb (i.e. assemble component A into component B). If a rig is already Cypres-ready, then any rigger - who is familiar with Cypres - may "insert" (my wording) a Cypres. Hint, most rigs built during the last decade (-ish) are Cypres-ready. The second issue involves "Cypres retrofits" (again, my wording). In the USA, a rigger may sew "Cypres retrofits/updates" into older rigs, provided he/she is approved by Airtec (Cypres factory). Meanwhile, Airtec (Cypres factory) insists that only Airtec-approved riggers may sew in Cypres retrofit kits. May I remind you that the FARs always defer to "manufacturers' instructions." Ergo, if a rigger sews in a Cypres retrofit kit - without Airtec approval - they are violating FARs. Following the same logic, you should probably have approval from the container manufacturer when sewing in Cypres retrofit kits. This is a grey area. My interpretation of the FARs says that "Cypres retrofits" are an "alteration" to the reserve container, ergo, can only be done by a Master Rigger. However, there are other American riggers who claim that Senior Riggers can sew in Cypres retrofits. I disagree with them. The issue is simpler in Canada, because only CSPA Rigger Bs are allowed to use sewing machines, ergo only Rigger Bs can sew in Cypres retrofit kits. In a few more years this whole argument will be academic because pre-Cypres rigs will all have been converted or worn out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,455 #17 October 30, 2006 Hi Rob, QuoteIn a few more years this whole argument will be academic because pre-Cypres rigs will all have been converted or worn out. Or better yet (IMO), we will get the FAA out of regulating parachutes and have something like you have in Canada. Then and only then will common sense prevail. Ever met an FAA man familiar with parachutes? Ever get a written response from the FAA that was really clear? Just my old $0.02, Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #18 October 30, 2006 Quote The second issue involves "Cypres retrofits" (again, my wording). In the USA, a rigger may sew "Cypres retrofits/updates" into older rigs, provided he/she is approved by Airtec (Cypres factory). Meanwhile, Airtec (Cypres factory) insists that only Airtec-approved riggers may sew in Cypres retrofit kits. Rob, Only a master rigger or the manufacturer may install a cypres kit into a rig; i.e. make a rig Cypres ready! The TSO holder(Rig Manufacturer) and the FAA only the only ones that may dictate how and who may install the AAD. The information regarding the above is located in AC 105-2C (Paragraph 2). Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #19 October 30, 2006 Quote Or better yet (IMO), we will get the FAA out of regulating parachutes and have something like you have in Canada. Then and only then will common sense prevail. Jerry, Gone are the days of jumping with non-TSO'd gear and the FAR's not being complied with. At one time, everyone was building rigs in their basements until a couple of manufacturer's got their gear TSO'd. The new TSO owners then squealed on the ones that did not have a TSO. That started the enforcement of the FAR's to some extent. It (FAR compliance) has been growing ever since and is not going away anytime soon. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marinho 0 #20 October 31, 2006 QuoteIn my way of thinking, this is an alteration. Any alternation must be first approved by the mfg or the FAA. After approval, then a master rigger can perform the work. Hi Rich, I understand where you come from, but on this specific case, this is not an alteration! Cheers,Gus Marinho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #21 October 31, 2006 Quote Hi Rich, I understand where you come from, but on this specific case, this is not an alteration! Cheers, Gus, It is by the FAR's wording. Local Inspectors sometimes may see it or interpret it differently that it is worded. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deadwood 0 #22 November 1, 2006 If you are doing the work, it's up to you to determine that. If, after researching it, thats what you determine, then go for it.He who hesitates shall inherit the earth. Deadwood Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marinho 0 #23 November 1, 2006 QuoteIf you are doing the work, it's up to you to determine that. If, after researching it, thats what you determine, then go for it. Hi Rich & Mel, Please, contact Ankie at Sunrise Rigging, the manufacturer of the wings container, and ask if this work is an alteration!!! Their number is (813) 780-7369 or info@skydivewings.com Have a great day!Gus Marinho Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
