ChrisL 2
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QuoteQuotegender isnt a straight forward issue for more then just 1 kid in a million.
Probably not, but at 6 years old I doubt its much of an issue at all to the kid.
Seems like the parents might have some issues if they are layin that kind of crap on a 6 year old or drawing absurd conclusions from the fact that a 2 year old unsnapped his onesie.
I always thought that being transgender was in the same ballpark as being homosexual, that is was something you started realizing about yourself once you went thru puberty and started realizing your feelings about your own sexuality.
I saw that show too... There was a LOT more to it than just the onsie, over the years. Every kid interviewed actually believed in being the other gender for a period of years, all of them had to struggle with their parents and the parents took years of convincing. All of them have been diagnosed by multiple doctors/psychologists. It isn't as simple as a parent making their boy dress like a girl.
Imagine what it would be like to feel female and be stuck in a guy's body (or the other way around), and then finally go for living the way you feel rather than the way you were born. These kids get ridiculed every day, they have a very long, tough battle to fight before being accepted as they are. For a kid to chose that path despite the baggage that goes along with it takes a great deal of strength and courage.
I have a transgender patient, and I can't even imagine what she went through to become female. From what I have read, the reassignment surgery and maintanance that goes along with it is extremely painful. Plus this woman had kids prior to finally getting the surgery, so the family psych issues can't be easy. She has my respect.
I may not be able to identify with it or understand it, but that doesn't mean that gender issues aren't real for other people.
Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda
Imagine what it would be like to feel female and be stuck in a guy's body (or the other way around), and then finally go for living the way you feel rather than the way you were born. These kids get ridiculed every day, they have a very long, tough battle to fight before being accepted as they are. For a kid to chose that path despite the baggage that goes along with it takes a great deal of strength and courage.
I have a transgender patient, and I can't even imagine what she went through to become female. From what I have read, the reassignment surgery and maintanance that goes along with it is extremely painful. Plus this woman had kids prior to finally getting the surgery, so the family psych issues can't be easy. She has my respect.
I may not be able to identify with it or understand it, but that doesn't mean that gender issues aren't real for other people.
Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda
QuoteQuoteQuotegender isnt a straight forward issue for more then just 1 kid in a million.
Probably not, but at 6 years old I doubt its much of an issue at all to the kid.
Seems like the parents might have some issues if they are layin that kind of crap on a 6 year old or drawing absurd conclusions from the fact that a 2 year old unsnapped his onesie.
I always thought that being transgender was in the same ballpark as being homosexual, that is was something you started realizing about yourself once you went thru puberty and started realizing your feelings about your own sexuality.
Gender identity is different from sexuality.
Don't you think it's possible that if a kid could be born without an arm, or with 2 uteruses or with his intestines on the outside that another kid could get female brain markers and male body markers?
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
QuoteI saw that show too... There was a LOT more to it than just the onsie, over the years. Every kid interviewed actually believed in being the other gender for a period of years, all of them had to struggle with their parents and the parents took years of convincing. All of them have been diagnosed by multiple doctors/psychologists. It isn't as simple as a parent making their boy dress like a girl.
Imagine what it would be like to feel female and be stuck in a guy's body (or the other way around), and then finally go for living the way you feel rather than the way you were born. These kids get ridiculed every day, they have a very long, tough battle to fight before being accepted as they are. For a kid to chose that path despite the baggage that goes along with it takes a great deal of strength and courage.
I have a transgender patient, and I can't even imagine what she went through to become female. From what I have read, the reassignment surgery and maintanance that goes along with it is extremely painful. Plus this woman had kids prior to finally getting the surgery, so the family psych issues can't be easy. She has my respect.
I may not be able to identify with it or understand it, but that doesn't mean that gender issues aren't real for other people.
Im not saying that its not real, I just don't understand it. The onsie comment really threw me off and I was actually following them until they brought that up, because all kids, regardless of gender unsnap their onesies and try to run around naked at that age. Heck, all of my boys play with dolls and my 5 yro currently has his toenails painted, becuase his sister got a hold of him. i have pictures of my husband palying with dolls and pushing baby carriages around at age 5 and all of my boys have went thru a phase of wanting a barbie. I never once considered it was becuase they were questioning their sexuality. And where my husband is concerned, he is a full blown man whore, who loves women and considers "his boys" to be his best friends (im not talking about his kids either...
) Anyway, that is why I posted this, to get a discussion going. I have no issue with adult transgenders, its their choice and they have lived many years fighting their inner battles. Kudos to them for having the courage to stand up for themselves and what they think is right. But how can a child who is as young as that have sexuality issues when at that age your genetalia is nothing more than a way to relieve yourself????
I thought the same way until watching the show and talking with my patient... gender identity has nothing at all to do with sexuality. Gay guys don't want to be women, they just prefer men as partners. Transgenders truly believe they are the opposite sex, and all that goes along with that.
There's a difference between wanting a barbie and insisting that you are a girl and want to be treated accordingly. Those kids were all very vocal about their feelings of being the opposite gender. All of them were diagnosed by professional, not their parents.
Adult transgenders started out as kid transgenders. Most of them just weren't fortunate enough to be diagnosed at a young age or couldn't verbalize their feelings at a young age.
Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda
There's a difference between wanting a barbie and insisting that you are a girl and want to be treated accordingly. Those kids were all very vocal about their feelings of being the opposite gender. All of them were diagnosed by professional, not their parents.
Adult transgenders started out as kid transgenders. Most of them just weren't fortunate enough to be diagnosed at a young age or couldn't verbalize their feelings at a young age.
Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda
QuoteI never once considered it was becuase they were questioning their sexuality.
Again, it's not a sexuality issue. It's a gender identity issue. There is more to gender than sexuality and genitalia.
QuoteI have no issue with adult transgenders, its their choice...
I think a point in the story on Dateline is just the opposite. That gender is hard wired and not a choice.
Do a search on the case of a little boy whose penis was snipped off during circumcision. His family's doctor convinced them to raise him as a girl. It's just not that simple.
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
1) How long will it take to have this thread moved to the SC?
2) I am in agreement with people like FreeFlyBella and Peregrinerose. Gender is hard wired
3) As long as the child is properly diagnosed as transgendered, the sooner they get to the child before puberty, the better. But without a doubt this is a delicate issue that most parents won't have to deal with.
Finally I didn't see this Dateline show, but I believe the 'circumcision' story gone wrong is the same one I am aware of and and it was clearly a case of "you can't make someone a girl just by chopping off the little boy's genitals". The possible transgendered person must be wired as the opposite sex in order to make SRS possible. Oh and while they may not be all that obvious (since passing as a male is likely easier than a female), but there are more FTM transgendered than people realize. But for some reason, society only thinks that MTF are the only transgendered people. Of course we know that society as a whole is pretty ignorant.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
2) I am in agreement with people like FreeFlyBella and Peregrinerose. Gender is hard wired
3) As long as the child is properly diagnosed as transgendered, the sooner they get to the child before puberty, the better. But without a doubt this is a delicate issue that most parents won't have to deal with.
Finally I didn't see this Dateline show, but I believe the 'circumcision' story gone wrong is the same one I am aware of and and it was clearly a case of "you can't make someone a girl just by chopping off the little boy's genitals". The possible transgendered person must be wired as the opposite sex in order to make SRS possible. Oh and while they may not be all that obvious (since passing as a male is likely easier than a female), but there are more FTM transgendered than people realize. But for some reason, society only thinks that MTF are the only transgendered people. Of course we know that society as a whole is pretty ignorant.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
I saw the show too and I feel it was more than just boys wanting to play dress up. The kids were seen by doctors as well. It's not like they just said ,"okay--let him be a girl or ok let her be a boy." As they said these children are most likely hard wired this way.
These kids definitely felt differently and said things that led me to believe that this is how they were born. It's more than just unsnapping a onesie. I applaud the bravery of the parents.
These kids definitely felt differently and said things that led me to believe that this is how they were born. It's more than just unsnapping a onesie. I applaud the bravery of the parents.
QuoteBut how can a child who is as young as that have sexuality issues when at that age your genetalia is nothing more than a way to relieve yourself????
Because it isn't a sexuality issue, it is a gender issue.
jkm2500 0
mamajumps,
I hope that I don't get overly involved here, but I think that there is more scientific evidence supporting the idea that kids will determine their sexual preference at a very young age. This topic was discussed in several of my classes recently, and it begs to be addressed further in the future.
The problem of the situation is that sexual preference and gender identity are two different topics. Hoowever, they go hand in hand. Researchers are starting to discover that sexual preference is determined by a part of the brain called the hypothalamus. In what would be considered a normal male brain the hypothalamus is larger than the female counterpart. In the abnormal male brain it would be similar in size to that of a female. This determines the sexual preference of the individual. If the "larger" hypothalamus is present the individual will more than likely be attracted to females. If the "smaller" hypothalamus is present, then the individual is more than likely attracted to males. This is true regardless of the gender of the individual. Researchers have also determined that the size of the hypothalamus is determined during the part of the gestational period where the brain develops. If the mother is under some type of duress during this portion of the pregnancy, then the hypothalamus tends to be smaller. Certain environmental factors and drugs have also help to enlarge the hypothalamus during this point in the gestational period. Thus, making the argument that sexual preference is determined prior to birth.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/scotts/ftp/bulgarians/billings-beckwith.html: read the portion about sexual preference.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/95/950310Arc5328.html: read the 5th and 6th bulletted comments.
http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead2.html
There have been several studies in lab mice that have provided fairly conclusive evidence of this phenomena.
There was an article in Time magazine a while back (that I can't find) that looked into the issue. It was about a family that had a set of twin boys where one of them was clearly more interested in doing "girly" things, and dressing like a girl. In one of the articles that I posted, it says that of the 75% of the overtly feminine acting young males later revealed they were gay.
http://online.logcabin.org/talking_points/Burr_White_Paper.html: another article stating that orientation is determined at a very young age.
Now, to add my disclaimer: This is information that I found on the internet. I don't have the conclusive evidence that is available in journals and writings at the University. Take it at face value. There is minimal evidence to support my position that gender identity and sexual preference are determined prior to birth, and will be exhibited early in life. However, without the studies and evidence it is a pretty hollow argument. I will work on this a little more when I get home.
I hope that I don't get overly involved here, but I think that there is more scientific evidence supporting the idea that kids will determine their sexual preference at a very young age. This topic was discussed in several of my classes recently, and it begs to be addressed further in the future.
The problem of the situation is that sexual preference and gender identity are two different topics. Hoowever, they go hand in hand. Researchers are starting to discover that sexual preference is determined by a part of the brain called the hypothalamus. In what would be considered a normal male brain the hypothalamus is larger than the female counterpart. In the abnormal male brain it would be similar in size to that of a female. This determines the sexual preference of the individual. If the "larger" hypothalamus is present the individual will more than likely be attracted to females. If the "smaller" hypothalamus is present, then the individual is more than likely attracted to males. This is true regardless of the gender of the individual. Researchers have also determined that the size of the hypothalamus is determined during the part of the gestational period where the brain develops. If the mother is under some type of duress during this portion of the pregnancy, then the hypothalamus tends to be smaller. Certain environmental factors and drugs have also help to enlarge the hypothalamus during this point in the gestational period. Thus, making the argument that sexual preference is determined prior to birth.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/scotts/ftp/bulgarians/billings-beckwith.html: read the portion about sexual preference.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/pr/95/950310Arc5328.html: read the 5th and 6th bulletted comments.
http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead2.html
There have been several studies in lab mice that have provided fairly conclusive evidence of this phenomena.
There was an article in Time magazine a while back (that I can't find) that looked into the issue. It was about a family that had a set of twin boys where one of them was clearly more interested in doing "girly" things, and dressing like a girl. In one of the articles that I posted, it says that of the 75% of the overtly feminine acting young males later revealed they were gay.
http://online.logcabin.org/talking_points/Burr_White_Paper.html: another article stating that orientation is determined at a very young age.
Now, to add my disclaimer: This is information that I found on the internet. I don't have the conclusive evidence that is available in journals and writings at the University. Take it at face value. There is minimal evidence to support my position that gender identity and sexual preference are determined prior to birth, and will be exhibited early in life. However, without the studies and evidence it is a pretty hollow argument. I will work on this a little more when I get home.
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Broke 0
Quote
I always thought that being transgender was in the same ballpark as being homosexual, that is was something you started realizing about yourself once you went thru puberty and started realizing your feelings about your own sexuality.
Diferent issue alltogether both psycologically and physiologically. There are some who feel the need to change their gender due to psychological reasone, and then there are some who choose what they want to be due to phenotypic reasions such as testicular feminisation, psudo-hermaphraditism, and a couple of other things I am forgeting about. Sorry I don't have my embryology text handy
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sartre 0
Interesting subject, interesting points made by people. I believe people are hardwired to be a certain way, and it's not necessarily something that is chosen. However, I still can't wrap my mind around a child that young being transgender. One of the posters made the point that these kids have known for years and years how they feel....but in that specific case the child has only been on this earth for six years....and for some of that time wasn't even capable of being aware of gender differences. Can a child that young already know that strongly?
I'm not trying to argue any particular point; just wondering what the studies say about age in this type of situation.
I'm not trying to argue any particular point; just wondering what the studies say about age in this type of situation.
Quote(homosexuality) is something you started realizing about yourself once you went thru puberty and started realizing your feelings about your own sexuality.
Where did you get this information?
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billvon 3,154
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>I always thought that being transgender was in the same ballpark as
> being homosexual, that is was something you started realizing about
>yourself once you went thru puberty and started realizing your feelings
>about your own sexuality.
a) I don't think they are that closely related. For a good 'insider's' perspective on being transgendered and going through SRS I'd recommend "She's not There" by Jennifer Boylan.
b) I don't think sexual orientation is determined at puberty. That's just when your hormones kick in and the preferences you already have are turned into stronger drives.
> being homosexual, that is was something you started realizing about
>yourself once you went thru puberty and started realizing your feelings
>about your own sexuality.
a) I don't think they are that closely related. For a good 'insider's' perspective on being transgendered and going through SRS I'd recommend "She's not There" by Jennifer Boylan.
b) I don't think sexual orientation is determined at puberty. That's just when your hormones kick in and the preferences you already have are turned into stronger drives.
QuoteI still can't wrap my mind around a child that young being transgender.
If a person's gender is hard wired - then it stands to reason that all transgendered aduts were transgendered children and transgendered infants.
The question then becomes, at what age does any child identify with one gender or the other.
Apparently the answer includes children under 6 years of age. And quite possibly varies - as in such issues as speech development, memory, etc.
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
sartre 0
ok, let me correct my statement: I can't wrap my mind around a child that young being aware that they are transgender.
QuoteQuote(homosexuality) is something you started realizing about yourself once you went thru puberty and started realizing your feelings about your own sexuality.
Where did you get this information?
I didnt get it anywhere, I just know that i started becoming attracted to men and being boy crazy per se around the time of puberty. Up until then, I could have cared less about boys and it was all about competing in rodeos and hanging out with my girl friends....
I agree. Pretty amazing stuff.
I say wow to the parents for being able to recognize and respond with love. They did highlight one family who could not understand at first. They insisted that the boy be a boy (he had a fraternal twin sister and they assumed it was sibling rivalry/jealousy). It wasn't until s/he was almost 12 that the family finally came around. That kid was pretty messed up.
The other family, who researched and accepted what was happening earlier on - had a pretty happy little girl (born a son).
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
I say wow to the parents for being able to recognize and respond with love. They did highlight one family who could not understand at first. They insisted that the boy be a boy (he had a fraternal twin sister and they assumed it was sibling rivalry/jealousy). It wasn't until s/he was almost 12 that the family finally came around. That kid was pretty messed up.
The other family, who researched and accepted what was happening earlier on - had a pretty happy little girl (born a son).
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
Quoteand hanging out with my girl friends....
That is a pretty good example of how gender and sexuality differ. Had you been transgendered, it wouldn't be a 'given' that you had girlfriends.
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
Probably not, but at 6 years old I doubt its much of an issue at all to the kid.
Seems like the parents might have some issues if they are layin that kind of crap on a 6 year old or drawing absurd conclusions from the fact that a 2 year old unsnapped his onesie.
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