Harness Slippage Inquiry

[MikeTJumps 4]

If you are aware of any incidents of "harness slippage" (where the webbing pulls through the harness even though it is assembled properly), the new PIA ad-hoc committee formed to investigate any incidents of that occurence respectfully requests you document it with the following information:

1. Type of harness/container and date of manufacture.

2. Hardware part number, mfgr. & date of mfgr.
(a 4 digit number like 0508).

This will help us identify whether the problem is hardware or webbing, (or both!).

Please send that type of information to Ted Strong of Strong Enterprises who is the chair of that ad-hoc committee.

Ted's e-mail address is Ted@strongparachutes.com

Thank you.

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[riggermick 7]

Quote

If you are aware of any incidents of "harness slippage" (where the webbing pulls through the harness even though it is assembled properly), the new PIA ad-hoc committee formed to investigate any incidents of that occurence respectfully requests you document it with the following information:

1. Type of harness/container and date of manufacture.

2. Hardware part number, mfgr. & date of mfgr.
(a 4 digit number like 0508).

This will help us identify whether the problem is hardware or webbing, (or both!).

Please send that type of information to Ted Strong of Strong Enterprises who is the chair of that ad-hoc committee.

Ted's e-mail address is Ted@strongparachutes.com

Thank you.

One would have to assume here, that you are refering to the hardware and not the actual webbing it'self? Could you be a little more specfic to the nature of the issue?


Cheers ..



Mock.

[dragon2 2]

I have/had that on both my rigs, even after doubling the webbing on one, now both are stitched and the problem went away Now no one can borrow my rigs anymore LOL.

Both are older PDF Atom's.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[MikeTJumps 4]

Part numbers would be on the hardware. A rigger can identify the type of webbing.

As to more specifics, it has been demonstrated recently that even with a proper assembly, the friction adapter is failing to hold the webbing locked in place as it should. Hand pulling in a straight line of force as the harness would normally be loaded caused the webbing to slip through the harness to the stops. This could be a very dangerous situation in that one could find oneself hanging very low in the harness to the extent that one could not exercise control over the canopy (as in not reach the steering toggles), or worse, fall out of the harness! Such an occurence has happened which is why the information on harness slippage needs to be collected to determine whether it is a webbing or hardware or combination of the two issue.

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[rhys 0]

my vector3 was chronic for that but i sewed an extra laver of thinner weebung to the straps and it was fine after that!

a talon 2 that i Once jumped was terrible too 1 time i opened and the legstraps slipped right to the stops at the end, i have never been so terrified in my life.

i didn't jump that rig again!

and a brand new strong tandem used to slip all the time too i just remebered!

seems quite common. the parachute de france buckles seem to be the best!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[MikeTJumps 4]

Do you have specific hardware numbers as well? Did you report the same to Ted Strong? He is heading up the ad-hoc committee on this seemingly wide-spread problem.

Thanks for your input.

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[nicknitro71 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2381743;search_string=slippage;#2381743

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1580967;search_string=sigma;#1580967

Memento Audere Semper

903

[MikeTJumps 4]

Thank you for all those vital links. I have forwarded them to Ted Strong for his review.

The PIA and the USPA are very concerned about this issue which is why a study is being performed.

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[MikeTJumps 4]

Well, I didn't find the edit button for my posting, so I'm replying to myself.

Another question that is being asked is what type of plating is on the hardware (if any) and if it is stainless steel.

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[bob.dino 1]

One from Australia.

[JackR 0]

I'll keep this short because it probably has already been addressed. I just remember that at the 2003 PIA Convention, Bill Booth presented a lecture about slippage issues and the research that RWS had done. As I recall it was focused on stainless steel friction adapters and the teeth per inch of the slider. He also discussed the testing performed on various Flip-Flop adapters as well. The slides from the lecture are available on the RWS website.

Visit http://www.relativeworkshop.com/tanpia_pia.html

Then select the "Its the LITTLE THINGS that count" link. Lots of pictures, but only some of the information. Much of the information was presented by Bill Booth. Also this was about much more than jsut slippage. You'l see it addresses some other issues that were topics of discussion at that time.

Packin' Jack
42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving
25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009
2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm

[riggermick 7]

Quote

Part numbers would be on the hardware. A rigger can identify the type of webbing.

As to more specifics, it has been demonstrated recently that even with a proper assembly, the friction adapter is failing to hold the webbing locked in place as it should. Hand pulling in a straight line of force as the harness would normally be loaded caused the webbing to slip through the harness to the stops. This could be a very dangerous situation in that one could find oneself hanging very low in the harness to the extent that one could not exercise control over the canopy (as in not reach the steering toggles), or worse, fall out of the harness! Such an occurence has happened which is why the information on harness slippage needs to be collected to determine whether it is a webbing or hardware or combination of the two issue.

Is that so? Never thought of that!! I'm kinda new around here. Shit, what do I know?

Mick.

[slotperfect 7]

The results are posted here.

No surprise on the negative side - the recommendation against EN hardware. I was a bit surprised at the positive result - PC hardware was recommended. I was also surprised to see that the color and treatment of the webbing was as significant as it was.

Arrive Safely

John

[SpeedPhreak 0]

I've got a new SE Dual Hawk Tandem passenger harness and the back diagonals slip with any upward pressure on the harness.

We contacted Strong and they said they had not heard of that issue but said to send it down and they would investigate and correct the problem.

SkydiveAllegan.com

[deadbug 0]

I have A Vector 3 Micron that I bought used a couple of years ago. It was manufactured in 2000 has stainless steel hardware and red webbing. When I got it, the legstraps pulled through so easily that I didn't feel comfortable jumping it and couldn't believe someone would jump ilike that (it had about 400 jumps on it). I sent it to Relative Workshop and the replaced the hardware for free. That fixed it.

Doug

[tbrown 26]

I just met someone last weekend who uses surfboard wax on her legstraps to prevent slippage. As surfboard wax is sticky stuff that helps you keep your footing on an otherwise slippery board, this sounds rather interesting.

The BIG question is whether surfboard wax would harm the webbing. This person was assured by her rigger that it's safe, but I'd like to hear some more opinions.

Personally, I haven't had a problem with slippage, not yet anyway.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[riggermick 7]

Quote

I just met someone last weekend who uses surfboard wax on her legstraps to prevent slippage. As surfboard wax is sticky stuff that helps you keep your footing on an otherwise slippery board, this sounds rather interesting.

The BIG question is whether surfboard wax would harm the webbing. This person was assured by her rigger that it's safe, but I'd like to hear some more opinions.

Personally, I haven't had a problem with slippage, not yet anyway.

Sex wax (DR Zoggs et:al) is essentualy bees wax and not harmful to polymers like webbing. In the days of cotton, bees wax was used to seal the ends of webbing, as it couldn't be hot seared. Turn unders were prefered but not always practical for all applications, so tape wraps and beeswax were the prefered method. It does increase friction between two surfaces and that it's primary use.


Mick.

[rhys 0]

wouldn't wax attrack abrasives like sand etc?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[skydiverek 63]

Quote

I have A Vector 3 Micron that I bought used a couple of years ago. It was manufactured in 2000 has stainless steel hardware and red webbing. When I got it, the legstraps pulled through so easily that I didn't feel comfortable jumping it

From Bill Booth:

"While ago, I got a bag of sand from Skydive Las Vegas to use in webbing slip testing. It definitely lubricates the webbing, and polished the hardware. So I agree that desert sand (dry dirt) is the worst. Most slippage reports come from out West.

The testing we do for slippage is done in a machine, and therefore cannot be done on a finished harness. The standard we use used to be 600 lbs. for 3 seconds with no slippage. By working with the hardware manufacturers, we have been able to get it up to 1,000 lbs.

With the same hardware, different colors and finishes of webbing slip at different loads. We always test with lightly treated silver webbing, because in my experience, it slips the worst. Red and purple are the best, with black somewhere in the middle.

Usually, a harness that is good when you get it, will start to slip gradually, if it ever does. So the second you detect slippage in use, do something about it. Sometimes washing the webbing, or slightly "roughing up" the center bar of a friction adapter with light sandpaper will solve the problem. Sometimes the hardware, or even the entire harness, will have to be replaced."

and

"We have made red and purple passenger harnesses, but most people like black. I don't think I look particularly good in purple...how 'bout you? And of course, the military is particularly fond of silver, which slips the most...and they want no slippage at loads approaching 1,000 lbs."

[Fandango 1]

Hello,
Have a look at this, we have been using this for 3 years now in our Next Sport and Tandem containers wherever there is a need for adjusting.
We got involved with the design of this type of adjuster years ago.
The idea is to have the bar pushed gently forward all the time by the little spring clip. Definitely no slipping, irrelevant of type of webbing used and no damage to the webbing at all.
I know it will not cure the problem in the field with many of the adjusters out there, but at least it represents a preventing solution to the problem from the hardware side. They are expensive, but well worth it.

Stefan Ertler
Paratec

Gardner : She looks fast !
Truman Sparks : Yeah, it's the stripes.

[riggermick 7]

Quote

wouldn't wax attrack abrasives like sand etc?

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Wax is not like honey, it's not sticky, all it does is provide more friction.

Mick.