Older Reserves

[udder 0]

Need to buy a reserve and I was wondering if buying something like a super raven or pre-2001 tempo was asking for trouble. If you have an ADD fire while you're head down is it most likely going to blow apart?

Is it better to stick with reserves that have spanwise tapes?

Keeping in mind I plan to weight 200lbs without gear.

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[diablopilot 2]

Head down speeds are quite frequently outside the TSO design limits. Expecting gear to save your ass when used outside of those limits is foolish.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[udder 0]

I'm not asking my gear to do anything other than it's job and specified by the TSO standards. But everything with a TSO sticker is not equal. I was just asking if it's signicantly more dangerous than lets say a PD reserve, smart, r-max?

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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Head down speeds are quite frequently outside the TSO design limits. Expecting gear to save your ass when used outside of those limits is foolish.

Head down speeds can be outside of TSO limits for new reserves too...

[skybytch 273]

If you're thinking about buying an older reserve, don't load it over 1.0.

Any canopy could blow up if it deployed while you are head down.

[Elisha 1]

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If you're thinking about buying an older reserve, don't load it over 1.0.

Any canopy could blow up if it deployed while you are head down.

I know this was discussed before, but what do we mean by "older"? I have Raven in my rig currently...I think around a 95-96 Micro-Raven 150 (Micros <=150 and Supers >150?). What's the difference between a Micro/Super, Dash-M and whatever the other Raven(s) is/are? I hope to buy a new container after my Tax refund next Feb and get it cut for a 120 (the Sabre I just picked up)...probably put a PDR126 in it...


Thanks.

[councilman24 37]

Remember that most PD reserves were certified in the same era as the glide path, Paraflite, and other early ram air reserves. All but the 106, 113, and 281 were certified under TSO C23b. ALL of their reserves have a published maximum deployment speed of 150 knots. And were designed to safely deploy for the person in a belly to earth or slightly head high. See the manual at http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Reserve_manual.pdf
That doesn't mean that any company might not have tested to higher loads, but the limits are what they are and only expect bad things to happen if you exceed them, especially maximum deployment weight and speed. Some, the other PD's, the Smart, and Super Ravens, r-Max are certified under 23c or 23d. That doesn't necessarily mean they are stronger, it might, or that even if they hold together you will!

Nothing yet, is designed to open safely head down. (I don't think anything is out yet. Some round reserves, but mainly not for the skydiving market, have higher opening max deployment speeds and loads.) Companies are working on it.

Now, if the question is a USED canopy versus a NEW canopy with the same certification, or even the same model that's different. But, with some few exceptions we haven't found used canopies to be less reliable than new canopies.

One exception is a reserve I found from a company no longer in business that had very weak fabric in one area. This is possible with any canopy, even theoretically a new one. But that's the nature of material control.

Also remember that canopies are MARKETED. Every manufacturer's aim is to sell you their appropriately sized canopy. So remember to distinguish between what is marketing and what are either true differences or objective opinions on performance.

As an example of marketing Butler Parachute, which doesn't make reserves for skydivers, has trade marked the phrase "THE BEST PARACHUTES ON THE PLANET™ " True? maybe, maybe not. But they get to say it. (Sorry Manely but it's a great example.)


IMHO, buy the reserve you want, but don't expect any to not either brake you or themselves when used outside their published limits. Some people get away with it, some don't.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Need to buy a reserve and I was wondering if buying something like a super raven or pre-2001 tempo was asking for trouble. If you have an ADD fire while you're head down is it most likely going to blow apart?

I've seen a reserve split into 2 and 5 cell pieces held together by the single reinforcing tape at the tail following a Cypres fire on a jump where an AFF instructor got knocked out by the student's D-bag.

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Is it better to stick with reserves that have spanwise tapes?

Yes.

[skybytch 273]

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What's the difference between a Micro/Super, Dash-M and whatever the other Raven(s) is/are?

MicroRaven is the name Precision gave to any Raven 150 sq ft and smaller. This was back in the days when 150 sq ft was considered small. All Ravens/SuperRavens/MicroRavens have bridle attachment points so they can be jumped as reserves or mains. All of them are the older design, regardless of manufacture date.

Raven DashM's were introduced in the mid-90's. The bridle attachment point was eliminated and additional reinforcement was added. Trivia - you can tell if a Raven is a DashM or not by the serial number; all DashM s/n's start with 5; older design Raven s/n's start with 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4.

Loading any Raven (Super, Micro or DashM) over 1.0 isn't a real good idea, imho. I have heard good things about the RMax, though - that one is a newer design.

[Elisha 1]

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What's the difference between a Micro/Super, Dash-M and whatever the other Raven(s) is/are?

MicroRaven is the name Precision gave to any Raven 150 sq ft and smaller. This was back in the days when 150 sq ft was considered small. All Ravens/SuperRavens/MicroRavens have bridle attachment points so they can be jumped as reserves or mains. All of them are the older design, regardless of manufacture date.

Raven DashM's were introduced in the mid-90's. The bridle attachment point was eliminated and additional reinforcement was added. Trivia - you can tell if a Raven is a DashM or not by the serial number; all DashM s/n's start with 5; older design Raven s/n's start with 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4.

Loading any Raven (Super, Micro or DashM) over 1.0 isn't a real good idea, imho. I have heard good things about the RMax, though - that one is a newer design.

Thank you, your all bytchiness.

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[councilman24 37]

You've missed that there were Ravens before there were super ravens. You might have ment that in the second line but left them out in the second to last line. Original Ravens were 1,2,3, and 4. Super Ravens were I,II,III and IV. I don't remember the date of the change but it was before summer of 1987 when I ordered my Raven IV after badly busting up an ankle. The original Ravens opened pretty slow as mains. Precision offered "bikini" sliders, sliders with the front and rear quarter cut out, in order to speed up the openings. These days even the original openings would have been considered fast.

The slider change wasn't maditory but I wouldn't pack an original Raven reserve without the change. Many riggers felt the same.

So there were Ravens, Super Ravens/MicroRavens, dash M Ravens, and now r-Max.

I'd certainly stay away from the original Ravens. I doubt that I'd pack one know, partly because they must be 20 years old by now.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Rigger53 0]

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The slider change wasn't maditory but I wouldn't pack an original Raven reserve without the change.

Actually, the bikini slider change was manditory if the Raven was being used as a reserve. Raven 1's became Raven 1b's, Raven 2's became 2b's etc.

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[Elisha 1]

Well, not that anyone necessearily cares, but according to my packing card (I haven't actually seen it before - I can't drive 90 miles to the DZ in the middle of the week to watch it get repacked)....

It is a Yellow Micro Raven 150 00528430, SB1221, Mfg Oct 95.

[Rigger53 0]

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The slider change wasn't maditory but I wouldn't pack an original Raven reserve without the change. Many riggers felt the same.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Apoligies to Terry about my earlier post where I said that the mod was manditory. He is correct, it wasn't manditory, however my organisation (BPA) made it manditory and I have always considered it so. Once again, apoligies. Bill Sharp

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[councilman24 37]

I tried to look for the documentation from back then but couldn't find it. I was pretty sure it wasn't manditory in the U.S., which is what I should have said. I remember having to be a pain in the butt about it to get people to spend the money for the bikini slider.

I've always assumed that it wasn't manditory because the canopy passed TSO testing, so in theory nothing was wrong. And Precision didn't want to say there was. So it was an inhancement, not a fix.

Thanks for the correction.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[pchapman 279]

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All but the 106, 113, and 281 were certified under TSO C23b.

Little correction for the record:
Most PD sizes were certified under C23c, Category B.
The 106, 113, and 281 are C23d.

C23c Cat B (254 lbs, 150 kts) is still a lot better than C23b with all its vagueness for the user...

[riggerrob 643]

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The slider change wasn't maditory but I wouldn't pack an original Raven reserve without the change. Many riggers felt the same.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Apoligies to Terry about my earlier post where I said that the mod was manditory. He is correct, it wasn't manditory, however my organisation (BPA) made it manditory and I have always considered it so. Once again, apoligies. Bill Sharp

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The - Raven bikini slider - "enhancement" may not have been mandatory, but I know few North American riggers who repacked Raven-A without it.
Initially, bikini sliders were free from Precision, so the decision to "enhance" was a no-brainer.

Since the "enhancement" was announced, I have only packed ONE Raven-A without the enhancement. The owner was a freefall photographer whined incessantly about how poor he was. I was not willing to waste half a day trying to extract a few more dollars from him.

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[mjosparky 4]

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C23c Cat B (254 lbs, 150 kts) is still a lot better than C23b with all its vagueness for the user...

Not so vague.

TSO-C23b

Standard Type: Tested to shock load of 5,000 pounds.
Low Speed Type: Tested to shock load of 3,000 pounds. Limited to use in airplane under 150 MPH.

Sort of confusing.

TSO-C23c

Category A: 90 kg (198 lb)/ 130 knots.
Category B: 115 kg (254 lb)/ 150 knots.
Category C: 115 kg (254 lb)/ 175 knots.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[RIGGER 0]

I would choose a PD reserve (PR)


Safe Jumps !!!

[RIGGER 0]

The "Bikini Slider" was not "mandatory" but "STRONGLY RECOMMENDED" by Precision & there was a reason for the slider to be changed.

Safe Rigging !!!

[councilman24 37]

Your right. Thanks. I had the wrong glasses on.

Sorry

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[faulknerwn 38]

Its funny - I packed a 1986 Raven 1 this week with Kevlar lines. As a new kid on the block as far as rigging goes - that gave me the creeps! Course I also packed a Swift 5-cell reserve with frigging dang funky brake lines this week as well! Is it just me or do we get all the old stuff in Texas?


W

[riggermick 7]

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The "Bikini Slider" was not "mandatory" but "STRONGLY RECOMMENDED" by Precision & there was a reason for the slider to be changed.

Safe Rigging !!!

Aren't you in a war zone right now? How's that going? How's business?

Stay safe (rigging) brother.


Mick.

[councilman24 37]

Remember, you don't have to pack everything brough to you.

But seriously, why pack stuff that gives you the creeps? Shoot, there's some stuff I might jump myself but wouldn't pack for others.

I won't pack a five cell swift anymore. Or a Raven 1. And those early kevlar lines were a pain. They snagged on everything, kind of like current PD lines but maybe even worse. Then on mains they liked to brake without warning. They were strong but not very tough. Dirt and grit would eat them up from the inside and they'd snap. That's why they didn't last on the market very long.

But of course I'm the tight ass rigger in the area they won't pack a lot of stuff others are willing to.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE