MrFreefall383 0 #1 July 16, 2007 To those of you who are as into cars as I am, this is for you. I went over to a friend's house earlier today to bleed his brake lines because he said he was having some brake problems that sounded like a bleed might be able to fix. So we did it once, clearly it didn't work, because his pedal had almost no pressure, and traveled all the way to the floor. So we talked through it again, looked through his instructions again, and made sure we did it by the numbers the next time. We knew we did it properly, and the results showed at first. Owner stepped into car, tested the pedal, it held good pressure early, and then when he smoothly hit it, the pedal went in too much again. So we tried it a third time, and it got better, and we were convinced we had it. But then as he turned it over, the pedal started losing pressure again. So based on that, does it sound more like air still being in the lines, a leak somewhere in the system despite no evidence of a leak, or a brake master cylinder failing?"If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydveraz 0 #2 July 16, 2007 Quote To those of you who are as into cars as I am, this is for you. I went over to a friend's house earlier today to bleed his brake lines because he said he was having some brake problems that sounded like a bleed might be able to fix. So we did it once, clearly it didn't work, because his pedal had almost no pressure, and traveled all the way to the floor. So we talked through it again, looked through his instructions again, and made sure we did it by the numbers the next time. We knew we did it properly, and the results showed at first. Owner stepped into car, tested the pedal, it held good pressure early, and then when he smoothly hit it, the pedal went in too much again. So we tried it a third time, and it got better, and we were convinced we had it. But then as he turned it over, the pedal started losing pressure again. So based on that, does it sound more like air still being in the lines, a leak somewhere in the system despite no evidence of a leak, or a brake master cylinder failing? Sounds like the master cylinder is bypassing. Press it hard and it stays up, press with little pressure, and it slowly goes to the floor.(It leaks internally) Make sure there is no leaks. Hope this helps..Arizona only has two seasons, Hot and HOTTER! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrFreefall383 0 #3 July 16, 2007 Yeah, it simply confirms what I think is the case. Jab at the brake, and it's tighter than a miniskirt on a fat chick. Smoothly lay into it, and it slides to the firewall, like a brake pedal should never do in the life of the car. If the master cylinder's bypassing, how would we be able to test that, and is there a damn thing we can do about it other than have a mechanic replace the master cylinder?"If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #4 July 16, 2007 Quote Yeah, it simply confirms what I think is the case. Jab at the brake, and it's tighter than a miniskirt on a fat chick. Good metaphor, I mean really nasty metaphor Quote Smoothly lay into it, and it slides to the firewall, like a brake pedal should never do in the life of the car. If the master cylinder's bypassing, how would we be able to test that You test it by doing what you did and checking to see if it does what it did Quote is there a damn thing we can do about it other than have a mechanic replace the master cylinder? No, you have to replace it. It could be a lot worse. If you know enough to bleed brakes, you can probably do it yourself if you get a good manual and have the right tools. Some auto part shops nowadays will loan many special tools if they are needed. You might as well do a complete flush of all the brake fluid from the system.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #5 July 16, 2007 I think we're on the right track. But you should always give the make, model, and year of the car in question, as well as details, such as anti lock brakes or not. There's enough variation in cars, as well as mechanical quirks, to make that information very useful. Replacing a master cylinder in most vehicles is not too hard. I've done a couple of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrFreefall383 0 #6 July 16, 2007 Yeah, this one looks easy enough to change, but at this point I'm hesitant to try and mess up anything else in this guy's car. I promised him it would go just fine already, and that's not the case, it can only go worse from here, Murphy's Law, ya know? That said, the car is a 2002 Subaru Legacy GT (w/ ABS), bought used in very early '05 in great shape, other than the pads and rotors needed to be replaced, and the impression I got is that those were replaced by his local dealership. No other major mechanical problems with the car, so this is one of those head-scratching "that shouldn't happen" moments that already made me lose sleep last night. I've never been defeated that badly by a car on such a simple problem."If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #7 July 16, 2007 Yeah, a good shop manual would make the job easier. I buy at least a Haynes manual for each type of car that I own. The last thermostat I did was more involved than most tuneups.S.O.P. for most ABS brake work: pump the pedal 30 times or so to release any residual pressure in the system prior to removing any hydraulic lines. Good luck helping out on this one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrFreefall383 0 #8 July 16, 2007 Quote Yeah, a good shop manual would make the job easier. I buy at least a Haynes manual for each type of car that I own. The last thermostat I did was more involved than most tuneups.S.O.P. for most ABS brake work: pump the pedal 30 times or so to release any residual pressure in the system prior to removing any hydraulic lines. Good luck helping out on this one. Yeah, manuals help. That's why I've got the Helm manual for my RSX. Haynes actually doesn't make one for the RSX, which is great because I've found every Haynes manual I've ever used to be completely and totally useless. That said, I believe he has a service manual for the car, but he never pulled it out the whole time we were installing his new header the other day, and didn't pull it out for this, just a sheet of instructions from a Subaru forum. The procedure was definitely correct, as we confirmed it with our Atlanta-based counterpart who has a WRX and does all his own work, but it was simply a bigger problem than we were prepared for. It was quite literally a kick in the balls. Thanks for the advice on the ABS. At this point, I don't know if we're going to be the ones to install the new master cylinder, because the owner seems like he's just ready to take it to a mechanic and get it fixed there. If we do though, we're going to do it by the book. Oh, and by the way, this kind of thing has happened to me a couple other times. Once we were trying to change out a clutch in a 96 Eclipse GS Spyder, failed miserably and were left with half the lugnuts on the front wheels and 3 mystery bolts after the whole thing was reassembled. The next was my own when I was trying to put in new front brake pads. Nobody mentioned an impact tool for the rotor screws, I never bothered asking myself, so when I tried to use a standard screwdriver to get them out on the left front, they both stripped, and that's how they were left. So no resurfaced rotors, just new pads, and I think they paid the price, as I'm already hearing occasional squealing at very low brake pressure. I can only hope that by the time I take out my ECU for a reflash a couple years from now, I know what the hell I'm doing. LOL"If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ragnarok 0 #9 July 16, 2007 Might check for a vaccum leak as well. ABS brakes are a bitch if you don't do them often. Pumping the brake pedal should set you right, though._________________________________________ Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006 Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008 Blue Skies Forever Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrFreefall383 0 #10 July 17, 2007 Yeah, we pumped the brakes, tried to restore proper pressure every possible way we could think of. The other possibility that was brought up a couple hours ago was by the owner of the car, and he said, "Maybe the bleeder fitting wasn't tight enough, so air was getting in everytime the screws were open." So he asked me to pick up smaller tubing, and we're going to try it again this week before our more experienced counterpart gets back into town. Then he's going to check it, see if he can figure out what we can't, and if that doesn't work, it's off to the mechanic."If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VideoFly 0 #11 July 17, 2007 If you see no brake fluid puddles on the ground, look into another master cylinder. When changing the master cylinder, carefully align the lines and very carefully hand tighten them, making sure there is no resistence. Once you are sure you have nothing cross threaded, use a correctly sized line wrench to tighten to recommended specs. Brake lines are soft and master cylinders are hard. Cross threading is easy if you are not careful. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #12 July 17, 2007 I doubt he'll be able to get an '02 manual from a parts store. He'll probably have to get it from the dealer for $150+ then add on the ~$200 for the master cylendar and and the time spent replacing it, and his friend may as well have it fixed at the shop. Just a thought.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrFreefall383 0 #13 July 17, 2007 As I said, it could still be air in the lines from an improperly sized bleeder fitting, as that seems to be a common problem with this car. So we're going to try that first, see how that works, and go from there. But again, if it is the master cylinder, which I suspect it is and hope it's not, we'll probably end up putting it into the mechanic, because we're not quite that brilliant."If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #14 July 17, 2007 Quote I doubt he'll be able to get an '02 manual from a parts store. He'll probably have to get it from the dealer for $150+ then add on the ~$200 for the master cylendar and and the time spent replacing it, and his friend may as well have it fixed at the shop. Just a thought. Naw, those Chilton and Haynes manuals go back quite a few years. Also, they cover many years of the same models, up to a decade of cars or more. Those manuals are moderately useful and run $30-$40, I think. The shop manuals from the dealer may run to $100, I'm not sure. But even the cheap manual is a good investment just to know more about your car, and what it needs for maintenance, and how involved certain repairs are, even if you never intend to pick up a wrench yourself. Knowledge is power. \ But true, there are many jobs on cars I now hire out that I used to do myself. When I was a teenager, I had lots of time and little money. I now find that situation reversed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #15 July 17, 2007 What I meant was, and could have expressed it better, was the '02 manuals are probably not available yet. I did a major brake job for my sister recently and thought I may also have to replace the master cylinder. She has a '99 Mazda and I would have had to go to the dealer for the manual because neither Chilton's or Haynes were publishing them yet - so I was told by the three auto parts shops I went to. When I went to the dealer I was told the manual was between $150 and $190. Btw, I do most of my own repairs too. It's sometimes faster and more convenient to do it myself, not to mention much cheaper.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lekstrom10k 0 #16 July 17, 2007 My son has a 2000 Saturn and had a similar problem. After C-Clamping the rotors back to the retract position and reinstalling new oads and rotors. He had the same problem ,Then after many part stores one guy finally said "Did you deactivate the ABS?" He said "Take the negative terminal off off pump the brake to hard pedal. Then reattach the terminal". He said the ABS cant comprehend fluid going backwards during the full retraction.Its been working great ever since. Also above my comments a shop manual can be bought at AutoZone etc.etc for a specific procedure for your car.I was amazed that of the 10 parts sales people only one knew that fact. Maybe they only worked at K-Marts before . Hope this helps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrFreefall383 0 #17 July 17, 2007 Yet another possibility. This is why I love working on cars, I'm always going to learn new ways to not screw things up. LOL"If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #18 July 17, 2007 Quote Also above my comments a shop manual can be bought at AutoZone etc.etc for a specific procedure for your car.I was amazed that of the 10 parts sales people only one knew that fact. Maybe they only worked at K-Marts before . Hope this helps. An even better approach to buying a manual at the store is to hit up your local library for a Chilton's Manual http://www.chiltonsonline.com/The instructions are generally very comphrensive and it doesn't cost you anything... I actually had a Precision Auto Parts store clerk suggest that to me... it was a great idea...Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrFreefall383 0 #19 July 17, 2007 As far as I know, any newer than '02, there are no service manuals for except by asking a dealer. The reason I say this is because our buddy with the WRX got his manuals, all of them, for his '02 from the dealer. Cost him somewhere around $150 from what I recall, and he said he looked around before buying them."If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #20 July 17, 2007 For some cars the official factory manuals are available on CD for less money than print versions.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
