Guest #1 July 19, 2006 Hey All! I'm looking at buying my first rig, and have been working with the sales manager at my DZ (Justin if any of you know him) to help build me a rig. From about the research I've done and after browsing the classifieds and gear section on here for hours, I think it is a good deal, but I just wanted to get your input. So here it is... -- Custom Mirage G3 -- Spectre 170 - DOM 2002 - A couple hundred jumps, in great condition -- Tempo 150 - DOM 1996 - 1 ride -- Cypress Expert - DOM 1997 - Batteries good until 11/07, 8 year done I was just wondering what you think a fair price for this rig is? The main is what my instructors have reccommended, and I'll hopefully be jumping it this weekend. It'll leave me loaded at approximately 1:1. Thanks!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #2 July 19, 2006 Do your instructors recommend a 150 reserve for you? I personally really don't like Tempo's, and would only buy a much bigger one - at LEAST 2 sizes - than my main (while I'd happily jump and have jumped smaller PD/Techno/Smart). ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #3 July 19, 2006 They really haven't said much about the reserve....I will check with them on that.... good point, thanks. I've heard mixed reviews on the tempo, some like it, some don't. The same feeling is at my DZ. I've heard PD has good reserves, but they are also a lot more....student budget and everything, I don't have loads of money, lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #4 July 19, 2006 Forget about price for now. First part of the equation is canopy sizes and harness fit. What is your body weight? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #5 July 19, 2006 Quotestudent budget and everything, I don't have loads of money, lol. Hey man, I understand you may not have money now, but I'd recommend holding off until you can get exactly what suits your needs and you like. When I bought my rig, I was about to buy a Vigil AAD because it was a bit cheaper and my instructor said, why would you be willing to save $100 on something that may save your life. I was tight on funds, I spent more than I wanted to but I'm happy with my purchase. I was looknig on dz.com for 2 months before I found gear. I contacted about 40 dfferent people for rigs and finally settled on one after making sure it was right. My best advice, don't buy what you can afford, buy what's safe, fits, and then worry about looks/price. Right now you're probably excited to get your own gear, as was I but I recommend holding off, let it sink in and get the best gear to suit you, then look for the best price. I know I've repeated myself in here but I can't say enough that you shouldn't cheap out on skydiving gear. Please also consider buying individual components, rather than limiting yourself to complete rigs in the classifieds. Also, check your local DZ, many people have stuff to sell, or know someone selling stuff. Chris"When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #6 July 19, 2006 I weigh 155 - 160lbs...depending on the day, haha. From what I've heard (and felt on my back!), gear is about 20 lbs. So exit weight is approximately 175 - 180. Therefore loading of the main on a 170 is about 1.03 - 1.06. Granted, I haven't actually jumped it just yet, I have to go a couple on a 190 first. I started off on lvl 1 on a 290, lvl 2 was 280, lvl 3 - 5 was 260, lvl 6 - 7 was 220.... all the landings have been stand-up. Only after I had got on the 220 (something that wouldn't glide so much), I was able to get within 50 feet of the landing target. Before I actually buy, I'll jump it, or if I like the feel of the 190, I may stick with that...who knows...just looking around right now. The container/harness will be new and custom fit, that that should actually feel good! Rather than the "once-size-fits-all" student gear. Lol. Cheers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #7 July 19, 2006 Oops, didn't see the last reply! lol. Yea, I hear you with holding off. Gear-wise, I'm not trying to get what's cheaper...just something that'll suit my skill level--and most importantly be safe. But something that will fit in my budget without having to break it with brand-new gear... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #8 July 19, 2006 I am not that fond of a reserve that is that old or that brand... Not to say it wouldn't work. I just want to know that my reserve is rock solid in case I have a very high speed terminal deployment. I would go for a PD 1st, a Smart 2nd... Just me... I known/known of some people who have blown up their reserves or had rough landings because they did not fly well... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #9 July 19, 2006 QuoteI would go for a PD 1st, a Smart 2nd... Out of curiosity, Why PD 1st and SMART 2nd? Isn't the SMART the newest design? Using knowledge unavailable when the PD was designed? chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #10 July 20, 2006 QuoteI'm looking at buying my first rig, and have been working with the sales manager at my DZ (Justin if any of you know him) to help build me a rig. From about the research I've done and after browsing the classifieds and gear section on here for hours, I think it is a good deal, but I just wanted to get your input. So here it is... -- Custom Mirage G3 -- Spectre 170 - DOM 2002 - A couple hundred jumps, in great condition -- Tempo 150 - DOM 1996 - 1 ride -- Cypress Expert - DOM 1997 - Batteries good until 11/07, 8 year done I was just wondering what you think a fair price for this rig is? The main is what my instructors have reccommended, and I'll hopefully be jumping it this weekend. It'll leave me loaded at approximately 1:1. Thanks!! The reserve is too small for your experience level, especially at your home DZ elevation. Note that many reserves of that vintage (including the Tempo) do not have span-wise reinforcing tapes. You want a PD, Smart, or Raven R-MAX. I admit to having a Smart in one of my rigs from before I knew better; paid $550 for it brand new. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 July 20, 2006 QuoteI was about to buy a Vigil AAD because it was a bit cheaper and my instructor said, why would you be willing to save $100 on something that may save your life. THis one of the same knuckleheads that told you the Javlin was crap? Oppinions are rampant in this sport.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #12 July 20, 2006 Sounds like a nice rig, however if you're at 1:1 on a 170, that reserve is to small for you. As amatter of fact a 170 might be too small for you as you're jumping in CO at a 5100 field elevation, and your reserve canopy's certified acceptable operating and deployment limits get much lower the higher you go. Don't forget that you won't be deploying it at 5100 MSL (at least we hope not) but infact quite a bit higher than that. Select your reserve accordingly. The Tempo is a fine canopy, but that one is not right for you. Pass on it.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #13 July 20, 2006 It's not the main that I'm concerned with (as much). You would be overloading the reserve for your experience level at a high altitude drop zone. A bad combination, IMHO. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #14 July 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteI would go for a PD 1st, a Smart 2nd... Out of curiosity, Why PD 1st and SMART 2nd? Isn't the SMART the newest design? Using knowledge unavailable when the PD was designed? Because I know more people who have landed the PD successfully... Once I see a few more years, I would say a tie... Now, I like both and would jump both - but I tend to think PD products are built better after jumping an aerodyne main for 400 jumps... Little things - like you no longer can see my main's model number, serial number, size, DOM, or anything - because all the silkscreen fell off the warning label - and it never has had a drop of water on it... Just little things like that. But it, despite being now a no-name canopy, flies great! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 14 #15 July 20, 2006 QuoteQuoteOut of curiosity, Why PD 1st and SMART 2nd? Isn't the SMART the newest design? Using knowledge unavailable when the PD was designed? These are sewn nylon assemblies, not microprocessors. What knowledge is available now, that was not around when the PD-R was designed ? The technology used in reserves is, by intent, tried and proven. The last thing you should want in a reserve, in my opinion, is some "new, revolutionary improvement". This has been a basic tenet of skydiving since the beginning. The PD Reserve is respected for its outstanding record, gained over time - hence it is recommended by many people. The SMART may be just as good, but hasn't had the time to build up the same record. Kevin_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #16 July 20, 2006 Thanks for the input...yea, probably not wise overloading my first reserve, lol.... I'll try to find a larger one... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #17 July 20, 2006 Quote I admit to having a Smart in one of my rigs from before I knew better; paid $550 for it brand new. Obviously, I was on drugs (or maybe should have been?) when I typed that. I meant Tempo, circa 1998. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #18 July 20, 2006 Haha....I knew what ya meant! ... maybe we were both on the same drug..thus, it looked like Tempo.....hmmm..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #19 July 27, 2006 So, I've been looking around, and what would your opinion be on a Spectre 170 main, PD-R 176 reserve rig? That would be about a 1.05 wing loading on the main and a 1.02 loading on the reserve...I think that's better than the 1.2 loading on the earlier Tempo 150... Also, container-wise, I've been looking at the skyhook and have heard good things from it. What do you guys think? Would it be good to have on a first-time rig? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 July 27, 2006 QuoteI would go for a PD 1st, a Smart 2nd... Just me... I known/known of some people who have blown up their reserves or had rough landings because they did not fly well... Do you any specific reasons that you feel PD 1st., Smart 2nd. ect.? I have heard of reserves of all brands blow up, fly poorly and land like shit. But I have never had it happen to me. I have jumped PD, Smart, Tempo, Raven and several brands of rounds. I must just be lucky. This is how urban legends and myths start. I heard from a guy who talked to a guy whose brother……..My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #21 July 27, 2006 QuoteSo, I've been looking around, and what would your opinion be on a Spectre 170 main, PD-R 176 reserve rig? How about looking at something in 200/210 range for both main and reserve. You have only just started jumping, there will be plenty of time to go small and bust your ass. No need to rush.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest #22 July 27, 2006 yea, i've been looking at 190's also...rental gear is killing my skydiving budget, so I'd rather put the money on rentals to an actual rig. But I don't wanna get something that I'll downsize after 50 jumps...I'd like something that will work for a year or so. Assumming getting a rental rig this weekend isn't so extreme...I'll hopefully be jumping the 190...but if it was like last weekend, I was stuck on the 220s and 210s...lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #23 July 27, 2006 Quote Do you any specific reasons that you feel PD 1st., Smart 2nd. ect.? I have heard of reserves of all brands blow up, fly poorly and land like shit. But I have never had it happen to me. I have jumped PD, Smart, Tempo, Raven and several brands of rounds. I must just be lucky. This is how urban legends and myths start. I heard from a guy who talked to a guy whose brother…….. Yes. I watched my friend land a 1.3 loaded "other brand" reserve and it threw him down in a stall - something that hurt his tailbone pretty bad. He is a good canopy pilot with over a thousand jumps and was caught off guard. The other reserve incident - I never met the person first hand because he is paralyzed due to the incident and does not jump anymore, but I know of people who knew him and were there and gave me 1st hand accounts... He had a jump go really, really bad - with an AAD fire at terminal - and, if I remember correctly, he did not pull because he was knocked out. The canopy split in two and the landing resulted in paralysis... Now - I know that nothing is perfect in skydiving, but I am just sticking with stuff I have seen work and I trust. Now I respect your opinion and I am sure you have had good luck with other reserves... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #24 July 28, 2006 QuoteYes. I watched my friend land a 1.3 loaded "other brand" reserve and it threw him down in a stall - something that hurt his tailbone pretty bad. He is a good canopy pilot with over a thousand jumps and was caught off guard. Canopies do not throw jumpers “down in a stall”. The canopy will do just what you tell it to do. I think what you meant to say is your friend stalled the canopy when he was attempting to land it. If he was such a good canopy pilot why did he get caught off guard? QuoteThe other reserve incident – If this is the one I think it is the reserve was deployed into a P/C in tow and the canopy was damaged by the PC. In the first case with the reserve loaded to 1.3, that is a high loading for a plain Jane 7 cell canopy. Even PD puts a cap of around 1.3 something on their reserves for expert canopy pilots. At this loading the control range is very narrow and the canopy will stall with the toggles at shoulder height or higher. In the second case the guy was way over the maximum weight limit and approaching the test weight. But even then the canopy saved his life. QuoteI know that nothing is perfect in skydiving, but I am just sticking with stuff I have seen work and I trust. That is a good policy. But do not bad mouth a product you have not seen work or tried for yourself. Don't repeat what other say. Develop your own knowledge and let them repeat what you say.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #25 July 28, 2006 Cool... Sparky - we could argue all night long - Ford vs. Chevy... But I want to clear up something I said that you were able to "spin" another direction because I was vague... QuoteI think what you meant to say is your friend stalled the canopy when he was attempting to land it. If he was such a good canopy pilot why did he get caught off guard? He was caught off guard in the way that the canopy did not "communicate back to him" or "fly like the canopies he is used to" or "react in a predictable way." In his case, he did not have much time to play, by the time he was open under the reserve (spinning main that ate up some time) he was low and landing out... So he did not have time to "get to know the canopy well." The landing sucked for him, because the flare did not react like anything he was used to. He FedEXed in a new reserve of a different make after the landing for the repack because he felt the "other" canopy too "unforgiving" to land. I think even good canopy pilots can have bad landings if the reserve does not behave like you expect it to. And the "other incident" was not a P/C in tow. QuoteDevelop your own knowledge Since you rarely get to jump a reserve (unless you do some intentional reserve as main jumps) - the way you gain knowledge about these things is by watching others land their reserves, asking others who have landed theirs what they thought, and by having riggers show you why they believe in one product over another... So, while I agree in your comment 100% - "develop your own knowledge" - I think I have, and what I have developed is an appreciation for two reserve models that people say are dreams to fly and have commented that they trust (either as riggers who have inspected, or pilots who have landed). But you make very good points, and perhaps if I jumped with you and had more good experiences with "other" model reserves, I would have trust in them too... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Guest #16 July 20, 2006 Thanks for the input...yea, probably not wise overloading my first reserve, lol.... I'll try to find a larger one... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #17 July 20, 2006 Quote I admit to having a Smart in one of my rigs from before I knew better; paid $550 for it brand new. Obviously, I was on drugs (or maybe should have been?) when I typed that. I meant Tempo, circa 1998. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #18 July 20, 2006 Haha....I knew what ya meant! ... maybe we were both on the same drug..thus, it looked like Tempo.....hmmm..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #19 July 27, 2006 So, I've been looking around, and what would your opinion be on a Spectre 170 main, PD-R 176 reserve rig? That would be about a 1.05 wing loading on the main and a 1.02 loading on the reserve...I think that's better than the 1.2 loading on the earlier Tempo 150... Also, container-wise, I've been looking at the skyhook and have heard good things from it. What do you guys think? Would it be good to have on a first-time rig? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #20 July 27, 2006 QuoteI would go for a PD 1st, a Smart 2nd... Just me... I known/known of some people who have blown up their reserves or had rough landings because they did not fly well... Do you any specific reasons that you feel PD 1st., Smart 2nd. ect.? I have heard of reserves of all brands blow up, fly poorly and land like shit. But I have never had it happen to me. I have jumped PD, Smart, Tempo, Raven and several brands of rounds. I must just be lucky. This is how urban legends and myths start. I heard from a guy who talked to a guy whose brother……..My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #21 July 27, 2006 QuoteSo, I've been looking around, and what would your opinion be on a Spectre 170 main, PD-R 176 reserve rig? How about looking at something in 200/210 range for both main and reserve. You have only just started jumping, there will be plenty of time to go small and bust your ass. No need to rush.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #22 July 27, 2006 yea, i've been looking at 190's also...rental gear is killing my skydiving budget, so I'd rather put the money on rentals to an actual rig. But I don't wanna get something that I'll downsize after 50 jumps...I'd like something that will work for a year or so. Assumming getting a rental rig this weekend isn't so extreme...I'll hopefully be jumping the 190...but if it was like last weekend, I was stuck on the 220s and 210s...lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #23 July 27, 2006 Quote Do you any specific reasons that you feel PD 1st., Smart 2nd. ect.? I have heard of reserves of all brands blow up, fly poorly and land like shit. But I have never had it happen to me. I have jumped PD, Smart, Tempo, Raven and several brands of rounds. I must just be lucky. This is how urban legends and myths start. I heard from a guy who talked to a guy whose brother…….. Yes. I watched my friend land a 1.3 loaded "other brand" reserve and it threw him down in a stall - something that hurt his tailbone pretty bad. He is a good canopy pilot with over a thousand jumps and was caught off guard. The other reserve incident - I never met the person first hand because he is paralyzed due to the incident and does not jump anymore, but I know of people who knew him and were there and gave me 1st hand accounts... He had a jump go really, really bad - with an AAD fire at terminal - and, if I remember correctly, he did not pull because he was knocked out. The canopy split in two and the landing resulted in paralysis... Now - I know that nothing is perfect in skydiving, but I am just sticking with stuff I have seen work and I trust. Now I respect your opinion and I am sure you have had good luck with other reserves... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #24 July 28, 2006 QuoteYes. I watched my friend land a 1.3 loaded "other brand" reserve and it threw him down in a stall - something that hurt his tailbone pretty bad. He is a good canopy pilot with over a thousand jumps and was caught off guard. Canopies do not throw jumpers “down in a stall”. The canopy will do just what you tell it to do. I think what you meant to say is your friend stalled the canopy when he was attempting to land it. If he was such a good canopy pilot why did he get caught off guard? QuoteThe other reserve incident – If this is the one I think it is the reserve was deployed into a P/C in tow and the canopy was damaged by the PC. In the first case with the reserve loaded to 1.3, that is a high loading for a plain Jane 7 cell canopy. Even PD puts a cap of around 1.3 something on their reserves for expert canopy pilots. At this loading the control range is very narrow and the canopy will stall with the toggles at shoulder height or higher. In the second case the guy was way over the maximum weight limit and approaching the test weight. But even then the canopy saved his life. QuoteI know that nothing is perfect in skydiving, but I am just sticking with stuff I have seen work and I trust. That is a good policy. But do not bad mouth a product you have not seen work or tried for yourself. Don't repeat what other say. Develop your own knowledge and let them repeat what you say.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #25 July 28, 2006 Cool... Sparky - we could argue all night long - Ford vs. Chevy... But I want to clear up something I said that you were able to "spin" another direction because I was vague... QuoteI think what you meant to say is your friend stalled the canopy when he was attempting to land it. If he was such a good canopy pilot why did he get caught off guard? He was caught off guard in the way that the canopy did not "communicate back to him" or "fly like the canopies he is used to" or "react in a predictable way." In his case, he did not have much time to play, by the time he was open under the reserve (spinning main that ate up some time) he was low and landing out... So he did not have time to "get to know the canopy well." The landing sucked for him, because the flare did not react like anything he was used to. He FedEXed in a new reserve of a different make after the landing for the repack because he felt the "other" canopy too "unforgiving" to land. I think even good canopy pilots can have bad landings if the reserve does not behave like you expect it to. And the "other incident" was not a P/C in tow. QuoteDevelop your own knowledge Since you rarely get to jump a reserve (unless you do some intentional reserve as main jumps) - the way you gain knowledge about these things is by watching others land their reserves, asking others who have landed theirs what they thought, and by having riggers show you why they believe in one product over another... So, while I agree in your comment 100% - "develop your own knowledge" - I think I have, and what I have developed is an appreciation for two reserve models that people say are dreams to fly and have commented that they trust (either as riggers who have inspected, or pilots who have landed). But you make very good points, and perhaps if I jumped with you and had more good experiences with "other" model reserves, I would have trust in them too... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
