Precision Aerodynamics Fusion - Owners Manual

[micro 0]

Well, how long has the Fusion been out now? Two or three years now at least. I remember Chris Martin was trying to sell me one in the summer of '03 in Tullahoma.

Well, I have one now, Bought it a couple months ago. I've put maybe 30 jumps on it now. Flies good, plenty of zip for me. I'm about 240-250 out the door and it's a 210. Lots of fun when I cork it down but still gentle enough too. It really seems to be a good fit for me.

But I thought it odd that it didn't come w/ an Owner's Manual. So, I requested one from George himself here in a PM but didn't get a reply. I know he posts from time to time, but I figured maybe he hasn't been around? This was a few weeks ago. So, today I call Precision and talked to a woman there... can I have an owner's manual for my pretty Fusion? Pretty Please? Can I? Huh?

Well, um, no you can't, b/c well, they um, don't exist. They haven't been written yet. WHAT? This product has been out on the market for a while now and there is not product manual for it? Actually, what the woman said was, "George is in the process of writing the manuals for these new 'high performance' canopies now" and I should email him to get on a list of people he needs to send them to when he is done with them.

Does this strike anyone besides me as, well, odd? Perhaps other adjectives could apply as well?

EDIT: whoops, I guess this should have gone into the gear and rigging forum... sorry.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[jakee 1,584]

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Does this strike anyone besides me as, well, odd? Perhaps other adjectives could apply as well?

I don't know.

However your post made me think a bit and well, what new info can be expected to be in the owners manual? When you get right down to it it's just another ram-air, zp, 9-cell parachute. A brief description of its performance level is in the precision website, as are it's line trim specs and precisions recommended packing technique.

What else is there to say that isn't just generic info that can be applied to any canopy?

As always, someone please tell me if I'm being an idiot

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[micro 0]

Ya know, those are good points you make, but at the dz I now call "home," the owner's manuals I've seen lying around there aren't just brochures w/ the material that can be found a website such as what you note is on PA's website.

I haven't sat down and read any of these manuals, but here's just some comparison from what I've seen...

Performance Designs website has a 4 page PDF document on the flying characteristics of the Sabre2. I don't know what their actual manual is like, but I imagine it contains that info as well as packing info, care of the canopy, etc. Icarus posts their canopy manuals (all in one) on their website, a 31 page document.

Maybe you're right in that any ram-air parachute manual will have a certain amount of generic information in it that is applicable to all ram-air canopies. However, I would hope that a reputable, responsible manufacturer (and I am NOT accusing PA of being irreputable or irresponsible), would also disclose in a manual that information that is specifically germain to that specific product. I would hope to see information about how MY specific canopy flies, what it's general characteristics are in varying conditions. I don't just want sales hype from a website, I want actual true-life data that the manufacturer has gathered. I would also like info on the lines (my canopy came w/ HMA lines and I knew nothing about this type of line material), service information, etc.

Sorry this is getting long winded, but I guess what I'm saying is, even though to some extent a parachute is a parachute is a parachute, each model of canopy, especially in today's marketplace, is different and it behooves the manufacturer to produce and distribute an operators manual in a timely manner. I just don't see that happening w/ PA.

Of course, there may be more to this that I don't know about, and if so, I'd love to hear it...

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[AggieDave 6]

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Ya know, those are good points you make, but at the dz I now call "home," the owner's manuals I've seen lying around there aren't just brochures w/ the material that can be found a website such as what you note is on PA's website.

.


Sort of like the PD's owner's manual. The one that I don't think has changed in 15 years. The same one that came with original Sabres that come with Velocities now?

Well, they have updated a couple pieces of information in them, but I haven't noticed a drastic change. Simply because a ram air main canopy is still a ram air canopy in terms for what the manual covers. Such as packing, names of the parts, attatching it to the risers, etc.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PhreeZone 20]

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even though to some extent a parachute is a parachute is a parachute, each model of canopy, especially in today's marketplace, is different and it behooves the manufacturer to produce and distribute an operators manual in a timely manner. I just don't see that happening w/ PA

As far as I know there is not an updated manual with the new Raven-Max reserve. Now for a rigger to legally pack it they need to at least have the manual availble to them.

PD has been talking about a new reserve manual for at least 2 years. I can understand, its not a high priority and if they put it in writing then its the standerd to be held to for legal reasons. If nothing is broke in the current version, don't try to improve it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[micro 0]

thanks for chiming in dave. if that's what's in PD's manual, that's almost as disappointing as not having a manual at all!

c'mon folks, i know some things aren't going to change much, but really... i buy a specific product for a specific reason and i want the manual to clearly and precisely elucidate how that product is going to function, generally speaking. I know it can't tell me everything, and I don't expect it to. I have to go jump it and train w/ it. But esp. w/ todays canopies, dontcha think that manufacturers would want to produce the most up-to-date, descriptive product manuals available to their customers? I know I would if I were a manufacturer.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[micro 0]

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even though to some extent a parachute is a parachute is a parachute, each model of canopy, especially in today's marketplace, is different and it behooves the manufacturer to produce and distribute an operators manual in a timely manner. I just don't see that happening w/ PA

As far as I know there is not an updated manual with the new Raven-Max reserve. Now for a rigger to legally pack it they need to at least have the manual availble to them.

PD has been talking about a new reserve manual for at least 2 years. I can understand, its not a high priority and if they put it in writing then its the standerd to be held to for legal reasons. If nothing is broke in the current version, don't try to improve it.

are you serious?

ok y'all, am I just making something out of nothing here? this all just seems irresponsible. granted, we're supposed to be trained, responsible people who know/understand/assume the risks inherent in this sport, but really... to put out a product w/ no operators manual or a sorerly out of date one?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[mark 107]

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Am I just making something out of nothing here?

Well, since you asked, yes.

Mark

[micro 0]

Wanted to add something here... I don't want to give the impression that I have this "external locus of control" here and am relying on PA or anyone else for my canopy training. I'm not trying to pass any blame onto any person or company.

On this particular canopy, my first ZP canopy and the smallest I've jumped, (not small, I know, but small for ME!) I've made quite a few hop and pops from anywhere from 10-14k and I'll continue to do so. I have been consulting coaches and have been doing canopy drills continuously to ensure that I know how this thing flies inside out. Maybe that's why I'm sort of crazy about this manual issue. I take this whole "safety and training" thing to heart and think that an encyclopedic manual is an important component.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[micro 0]

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Am I just making something out of nothing here?

Well, since you asked, yes.

Mark

Can you elaborate? Is it that my understanding of owners manuals is faulty? Am I asking that their purpose and scope be more than what they have historically been?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[jakee 1,584]

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Performance Designs website has a 4 page PDF document on the flying characteristics of the Sabre2. I don't know what their actual manual is like, but I imagine it contains that info as well as packing info, care of the canopy, etc. Icarus posts their canopy manuals (all in one) on their website, a 31 page document.

Good point, and one that I was thinking about. However, Both the PD owners manual (on their site) and the icarus manual are still mostly generic information. No liability, no guarantee, how to hook up, inspect, pack etc. The Icarus manual really has no more canopy specific info than the PA site.

The PD characteristics outlines are very good documents and probably quite useful for deciding what canopies to demo but describing a canopies flight in words has such limitations. For instance if you haven't flown both a spectre and a sabre1 then the sabre2 doc won't really tell you anything - certainly not more than a couple of jumps hands on experience.

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I would also like info on the lines (my canopy came w/ HMA lines and I knew nothing about this type of line material), service information, etc.

I totally agree there. HMA still seems a very 'exotic' material. Would be nice to have all the manufacturers info on how it behaves/wears.

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I would hope to see information about how MY specific canopy flies, what it's general characteristics are in varying conditions. I don't just want sales hype from a website, I want actual true-life data that the manufacturer has gathered.

Honestly, I don't think you'll ever get that, from any manufacturer. Your canopy size, your WL, your experience level, how you fly, its all too specific. Also, as I said before I think it is very difficult to describe in words how a canopy feels. There is a certain amount that can be said, but I'm not sure how useful a text document can be in describing the nature of a canopy to someone who has already jumped it a few times.

I'm really just thinking out loud here. It's an interesting subject

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[waltappel 1]

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...to ensure that I know how this thing flies inside out.

If I recall correctly, that canopy doesn't fly very well at all when it's inside out. heh heh.



Walt

[ccsayre 0]

Micro, you are making an excellent point. I never dwelled on it before, but we put out $1500 to $2000 for a new canopy I would expect a concise manual giving technical info and such.
I would expect that from something I spent $500 on let alone something my life could depend on...

Luck is Preparation meeting Opportunity

[mjosparky 4]

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i buy a specific product for a specific reason and i want the manual to clearly and precisely elucidate how that product is going to function, generally speaking.

One thing they did say on their web site that you either didn't see or chose to ignore was that with an exit weight of 240-250 pounds you should be an expert canopy pilot. With 68 jumps their recommended MOW is 179 pounds.

Why worry about anything else they might have to say about the canopy, generally speaking.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[micro 0]

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i buy a specific product for a specific reason and i want the manual to clearly and precisely elucidate how that product is going to function, generally speaking.

One thing they did say on their web site that you either didn't see or chose to ignore was that with an exit weight of 240-250 pounds you should be an expert canopy pilot. With 68 jumps their recommended MOW is 179 pounds.

Why worry about anything else they might have to say about the canopy, generally speaking.

I'm not at all surprised that such a comment has finally been made. In spite of a tone that could infer other motives, I'll assume that you have only the best of intentions by making your post. Given the history of far too many inexperienced canopy pilots making hamburger of themselves under little beach-towel sized canopies, I can understand the shift by some here to be critical of anyone who could, at first blush, appear to be making downsizing decisions that are imprudent.

Last night I weighed myself and my gear and I came in at 245. That puts me at a wing loading of 1.166. I'd hardly say that's on the radical side, but still, considering my jump numbers, I can understand why someone such as yourself would have some concern.

However, knowing what you do about canopy piloting, being as experienced as you are, surely you admit that there are more factors to consider regarding who is flying under what canopy. You simply can not go just on jump numbers alone to determine who will live and who will die under any particular parachute. True, were someone like me to get under a Stiletto that is 1/2 or 2/3 or even 3/4 the size of my Fusion, surely I'd be in for a world of trouble.

But I am not doing that, am I. I am flying an "entry level" (Precision's words, not mine) canopy that is only 5 sq ft smaller than my previous canopy. Do you know what my canopy progression has been? Do you know what kind of canopy training I have had and from whom? Do you know that I have a coach, a dz staff member, watch and critique just about every flight under canopy and every landing I make under this 210? Do you also know that I have made checklists for myself, based on Bill Von's and Brian Germain's list of canopy skills and I regularly practice the skill sets from these checklists under canopy? As I said earlier, I spend almost as many jumps pulling above 10k on this canopy as I do making regular skydives, just to perfect my flying under this wing.

The point I'm trying to make is that we can all make over-arching generalizations and assumptions about individuals based on incomplete data, as you did in this case. The dz I jump at is extremely safety conscious, sometimes obnoxiously so. There has never been a fatality or even a serious injury there in 40 years of operation. The most they have had are things like broken ankles. They have seen me fly, they know my history, they are intimately involved in my training and they do not share your view.

As for your statement,

>Why worry about anything else they might have to say about the canopy, generally speaking

It's still a valid question, especially for someone like me who takes their training and advancement in this sport as seriously as I do. But thanks for trying to invalidate that...

Edited to add a snippet from icarus' website re: wingloading... it sums up the category I fall into in jumping this size Fusion...

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Class 3
Mid Range
1.0 to1.25lbs/SqFt wing loading

This mid range of canopy is a good bench mark to work from. These canopies are high enough wing loading to start having a little fun yet low enough that a reasonably competent low time jumper could handle one as a first canopy (check with your C.S.O.) and still have a canopy they want to be jumping in a couple of hundred jumps time. This is also getting into the range that must be treated with a little respect however still has a reasonably good margin for error. Most of the canopies we sell are in this range. From this loading up, most wind conditions allowable for jumping are not a problem

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[riggerrob 643]

Hee!
Hee!
Writing canopy manuals is like trying to write "intuitive" software.
Hee!
Hee!
It all depends upon the experience level of the reader .... a variable that is very difficult to predict.

If I remember correctly, the Stiletto manual says: "if you already have 500 jumps on a Sabre 1, then you will find the your shiny new Stiletto does this a little faster and that a little slower."

The other hassle is legal. When writing manuals for Butler, Rigging Innovations and Para-Phernalia, I concluded that reserve packing manuals are often written as legal documents first, practical documents second. A manual can provide the first level of legal defense whenever a user tries to sue a manufacturer. If the manufacturer can prove that a user ignored "step 17 on page 92" that provides an "easy out" from a lawsuit.
So any new manual needs to be exhaustively reviewed by (expensive) lawyers before it is allowed anywhere near the public.

In conclusion, we have only seen minor improvements in canopies over the last decade, hardly enough to warrant the exhaustive process of writing a new manual for every different model.

[micro 0]

thanks bob. the legal angle is one i hadn't thought of before, and although brought up previously, i'm sure is a big factor for manufacturers.

that having been said, such considerations haven't seemed to hinder smaller canopy manufacturers (who may be more forward thinking, perhaps?) such as Brian Germain. Taking just a cursory look at his canopy manual, published on his website, looks pretty darned good.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/basoman.pdf

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[mjosparky 4]

[micro 0]

Well, I'm not going to sit and argue w/ you, since what you have to say here is sort of off the topic anyway. However, it does bear repeating that there is more to one's flying skills than just jump numbers, esp. when much of one's time in the air is spent under canopy.

However, you DID manage to say something that is relatively on topic...

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My guess is they know a great deal more than you about how to safely fly one of their canopies.

That is precisely the argument I've been making for even having something called (say it w/ me now) an "owner's manual." Perhaps PA would care to PUBLISH their vast fund of knowledge regarding how their canopies fly, for the benefit of us in serfdom. True, we can simply gleen such data in vivo, as I have done and continue to do, but wouldn't it be nice to have an excelerated learning curve, to be that much more well informed ahead of time by having a manual at our disposal?

Again, you can trust (well, you don't have to, really, but it's true) that I do everything I can to seek out competent coaching and training and to immerse myself in every facet of how this canopy flies, not just from 3k to landing, but at different altitudes, different humidity levels, temperatures, winds, etc. I read incessantly about this, as much material as I can find.

If I sound a little jaded, I hope you'll forgive me. It's just that I get a little ticked when people make posts such as yours that are filled with so much presumption. While I can't blame you for having the position you do, given what you've seen in this sport w/ unecessary injuries and deaths, just b/c my story may appear to ring true to so many others you have seen or heard doesn't make it so. (And I can see it now, you or someone like you may be saying, "yep, just like all the rest, thinking he's somehow different or special from all the other newbs who downsize too quickly or overload their canopies w/o proper experience".) Well, sometimes that IS the case. And I think I've demonstrated that pretty well in my posts to you in this thread. And remember one other thing... this canopy is only 5... count them, FIVE sq ft. smaller than my previous canopy, the one I jumped since just off student status.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[mjosparky 4]

Well, you injoy your new canopy and remember we had this little talk.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[micro 0]

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Well, you injoy your new canopy and remember we had this little talk.

um, yes dad (?)

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[mjosparky 4]

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Well, you injoy your new canopy and remember we had this little talk.

um, yes dad (?)

If you have to ask..........
A little food for thought.

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Rob Harris, Dave Wilds, Tom Piras, Roger Nelson……..They were Gods, World Champions, Icons.

They had natural talent, incredible skills and were hugely current………And yet the ground offered them no concession for their level of skill or experience.

There are few, now or in the future, who will reach their level in this game we play.

Never for a moment become so arrogant as to believe you are the one that has what it takes to avoid their fate.

If one person has come up to you and suggested that “what you are doing is not smart”, “You need to slow down”, “You are not ready for that” or any of the well used warning phrases that is your first wake up call. If you heed this warning and modify your behavior there is a chance you will last past the tourist period. (5 - 10 years)
If two or more people have approached you and voiced one of those “phrases” and you responded with, “I can handle it”, “I learn faster than most”, “I know what I am doing”, or any of the other well used “stay out of my business” phrases, you have a good chance of not making your tourist period.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[micro 0]

just a little bump... y'all want a good example of a canopy owner's manual, I just finished reading Big Air Sportz manual for the Samurai/Lotus canopies, written by B. Bermain. Well done, very informative, as is just about all things he does. It should serve as an example to other manufacturers, but it also covers some good canopy flight material that is applicable to all... a good read!

oh, and one other thing... just so y'all don't think I'm just raggin on Mr. Galloway or anything, I do highly enjoy the Fusion his ladies made me... of course, I don't have much else to compare it to, nor do I know if it is an original PA design or whatever, but it IS everything that I want/need/desire in a canopy. I'm quite taken w/ it. So there.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[micro 0]

here's a post that I made to someone in another thread that is relevant in this one too (link to original post and thread below)

Here's a question that I honestly don't know the answer to regarding the legal issue that you raise...

Isn't that a double edged sword? I mean, if there is reluctance to put out an encyclopedic manual for fear of some legal binding that it may have, can't it go the other way? Couldn't a court fault a company for failing in some way for putting out a product w/o also producing an owner's manual? Why would having a manual in any way legally bind a company should an owner/operator screw the pooch when the manufacturer would STILL maintain it's status as an uninsured, waivered entity that accepts NO liability for the consequences of anyone using their product.

I find it odd that a little company like Big Air Sportz would take the time to put up such a manual if the potential legal repercussions were so devestating.

http://dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2291934;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[bob.dino 1]

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I find it odd that a little company like Big Air Sportz would take the time to put up such a manual if the potential legal repercussions were so devestating.

It may be worth noting a couple of things:

1. BAS isn't worth suing - Brian probably doesn't even have enough cash to pay the plaintiff's lawyer's $500/hr fees.


2. BAS doesn't sell canopies suitable for students, precisely because of the perception that new jumpers are more likely to sue.