riggermick 7 #101 June 28, 2006 QuotePablito is Pablito, I happen to work for RWS, and I'm not representing RWS on this discusion, I never said as an RWS employee I think bla bla bla. THe flag that I waved was the Pablito flag not the RWS one. If there is something in concern with RWS the right person will do the post. Mick Have a great day. and look at my signature. doesn't say RWS employee on it. No your'e right it doesn't say RWS employee in your profile but you have represented yourself as an employee in this and many other dicussions on this forum. As for waving "Pablito's flag", that puts you in a bit of a bind. ANY TIME you open your mouth in person or on a forum on any subject relating to the industry you are in you are the public face of the company you represent, like it or not. I know this from personal experience as the co-owner of Fliteline and having to feild many postings on the rec dot (long before your time in the sport), anything you say WILL reflect on the company you represent either in a posative or negative light. look at any company spokesperson either famous or not THEY represent whom they are working for and as such reflect the values of the company. As you grow older you will see the value of tempering your statements especially in a public forum. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #102 June 28, 2006 QuoteAs you grow older you will see the value of tempering your statements especially in a public forum. I think you just called me "old". ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #103 June 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteAs you grow older you will see the value of tempering your statements especially in a public forum. I think you just called me "old". If the cap fits......... Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,468 #104 June 28, 2006 Hi Pablito, First, please understand that this is not an attack on you or the SkyHook. While I have both positive & negative concerns about the SkyHook, I hope that they do not influence this question. Quotehaving 2 pilot chutes, one that could get in between your line groups and give you a bag lock? Since the SkyHook pulls the reserve bridle at some point below the reserve pilot chute, is the placement of the SkyHook hook such that it is impossible for the reserve pilot chute to do as you stated regarding two pilot chutes? Just a request for information. Thanks, Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #105 June 29, 2006 QuoteHi Pablito, First, please understand that this is not an attack on you or the SkyHook. While I have both positive & negative concerns about the SkyHook, I hope that they do not influence this question. Quotehaving 2 pilot chutes, one that could get in between your line groups and give you a bag lock? Since the SkyHook pulls the reserve bridle at some point below the reserve pilot chute, is the placement of the SkyHook hook such that it is impossible for the reserve pilot chute to do as you stated regarding two pilot chutes? Just a request for information. Thanks, I rest my case Jerry!!!!! Really good point. All other arguements about time intervels between hesitations and launches are redundent at this time. Mick. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #106 June 29, 2006 The Skyhook is placed closer to the pilot chute than the bag on the reserve bridle, so that the pilot chute is ALWAYS ABOVE the bag. This is a fundamental design requirement of any such system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #107 June 29, 2006 QuoteThe Skyhook is placed closer to the pilot chute than the bag on the reserve bridle, so that the pilot chute is ALWAYS ABOVE the bag. This is a fundamental design requirement of any such system. I hear ya Bill, but I don't see a difference when it comes down to pilot chute hesitations. What you have created (I think it's incredible) and what I have created can suffer from the same improbable scenario you have always expuosed. Either way it's occurence is infinitesimal, so what's the beef? That's skydiving / life deal with it, you know how it goes, it's all a trade off. Mick. Ps: Reign your kids (Pablito et:al)in before they do your company/ image some harm, there already starting to piss off some people with clout and prestige in the sport. I know they are the future of the sport and have grand designs, but try to temper their enthusiasom somewhat in the political arena. They are too young to know the implicatons of their outbursts. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #108 June 29, 2006 Quote I hear ya Bill, but I don't see a difference when it comes down to pilot chute hesitations. . There seem to be obvious differences in the scenarios and opportunities for this. A skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play and you have a normal deployment where a hesitation would just be a hesitation. As for the pilot-line group entanglement the skyhook to freebag bridle section is longer than the skyhook to pilot chute, that's got to be deliberate. You're solving different problems under different scenarios and that makes all the difference. You can always argue that some scenario will kill you (you've encountered some of that resistance yourself) but the issue the likelyhood of encountering a problem vs a benefit. I thought your idea was great until the pilot chute hesitation was mentioned, that makes me wonder about the relative probability of that killing me vs getting hung up in my reserve pilot chute where you save me. I really have no way to accurately judge which is more likely, it's probably still a benefit but there's doubt. I don't have a similar concern about the skyhook, yes there are concerns but my perception is that the benefit is such that a skyhook is much more likely to save me than kill me, and I'm already acclimatised to the concept of a basic RSL anyway. Decisions, decisions, if only I knew what was going to kill me in skydiving I could buy the gadget to save me for old age Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dontiego 0 #109 June 29, 2006 Back to horseshoe malfunction on reserve... Why not have a strong spring *below* the reserve bag in the container? If the PC is in horseshoe then the reserve container is open, so this spring would kick the free-bag out. Once the freebag is out, would there be enough drag to straighten the lines and open the bag, if the PC still is attached to the jumper's body? Maybe not so nice to have a spring in your back after the free-bag has left. This spring could also be free and just fall off when it has done its work. That makes one more thing to look after while hiking for your main and handles (irrelevant drawback I think). A cheap biodegradable spring? :) Btw, could someone explain the catapult or give me a link? (I just hope it isn't what I just described). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites caspar 0 #110 June 29, 2006 QuoteBtw, could someone explain the catapult or give me a link? (I just hope it isn't what I just described). read the whole thread, it is described earlier on and discussed. at a guess i would of thought that packing a spring under the free bag would be pretty tricky plus you have the orginal spring in there (too much pressure on the closing pin?)"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #111 June 29, 2006 Quote skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play Right up untill it doesn't work properly.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dontiego 0 #112 June 29, 2006 I thought I had read the whole thread. I hadn't. Sorry."We call on the common man to rise up in revolt against this evil of typographical ignorance." http://bancomicsans.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #113 June 29, 2006 QuoteBack to horseshoe malfunction on reserve... Why not have a strong spring *below* the reserve bag in the container? If the PC is in horseshoe then the reserve container is open, so this spring would kick the free-bag out. Once the freebag is out, would there be enough drag to straighten the lines and open the bag, if the PC still is attached to the jumper's body? Maybe not so nice to have a spring in your back after the free-bag has left. This spring could also be free and just fall off when it has done its work. That makes one more thing to look after while hiking for your main and handles (irrelevant drawback I think). A cheap biodegradable spring? :) Btw, could someone explain the catapult or give me a link? (I just hope it isn't what I just described). Not a new idea. Three reasons why it's not a good idea. 1) Pushing the bag out under spring pressure could cause an out of seqence opening damaging or destroying the reserve. 2) A spring is a major snag point weather it's attached to the pack tray or not. 3) Falling debris made of steel. There are a few more reasons but they mainly deal with asthetics, comfort and packing. Mick. Almost forgot, friction staging used on most reserve containers would either have to be eliminated or degraded to the point of being usless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #114 June 29, 2006 QuoteQuote skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play Right up untill it doesn't work properly. And when you can give me the probability of that with one vs the probability of going in with without one I'll be able to make an informed decision, until then I'm left with my armchair guesswork to base my gear decision on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #115 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play Right up untill it doesn't work properly. And when you can give me the probability of that with one vs the probability of going in with without one I'll be able to make an informed decision, until then I'm left with my armchair guesswork to base my gear decision on. And that begs the question; can you give the probability of going in without one vs. the probability of going is with one? I don't think so. So what is your point?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #116 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play Right up untill it doesn't work properly. And when you can give me the probability of that with one vs the probability of going in with without one I'll be able to make an informed decision, until then I'm left with my armchair guesswork to base my gear decision on. And that begs the question; can you give the probability of going in without one vs. the probability of going is with one? I don't think so. So what is your point? You just made my point again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #117 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play Right up untill it doesn't work properly. And when you can give me the probability of that with one vs the probability of going in with without one I'll be able to make an informed decision, until then I'm left with my armchair guesswork to base my gear decision on. And that begs the question; can you give the probability of going in without one vs. the probability of going is with one? I don't think so. So what is your point? You just made my point again. I fail to see any point. You do not have any data on the probability of going in with any of the gear you jump. But you still jump it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #118 June 30, 2006 Quote I fail to see any point. You do not have any data on the probability of going in with any of the gear you jump. But you still jump it. That IS my point, everyone does this to some degree. As I said, I'm left with my armchair guesswork to base gear decisions on. Any scenario offered is shoehorned into our personal frame of reference, and it's all about personal perception of risk. Throwing some malfunction into the theoretical mix especially if it's seen as vague or unlikely is not gonna change much if there's an existing perception of a substantial safety benefit. But that's not the point I was trying to make, I've already reitterated what I was trying to say enough times, it's not really obtuse and it stands on its own. I don't actually jump a rig with a skyhook, at some point it the future I'll make that move if product hints I've been given pan out. I'm not going to run out and change my rig for something like this. For me it's a factor that will be weighed when I'm getting another rig. If I jumped a vactor3 I'd probably have had the upgrade done, but I don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #119 July 1, 2006 Throwing some malfunction into the theoretical mix especially if it's seen as vague or unlikely is not gonna change much if there's an existing perception of a substantial safety benefit.*** Why bother witha reserve then.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #120 July 1, 2006 I am still not sure what your point is, but now I have a head ache. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #121 July 1, 2006 QuoteThrowing some malfunction into the theoretical mix especially if it's seen as vague or unlikely is not gonna change much if there's an existing perception of a substantial safety benefit.*** Why bother witha reserve then. Because encountering a main malfunction is actually pretty probable, there's not much doubt there and lots of hard & anectotal evidence on the probability. Why don't you jump a tertiary? I was just making an obvious observation, not trying to start a pisisng contest. Maybe you sould read that earlier post again (first mention of armchair) and consider whether you actually disagree with it. It was not actually intended to refute what you wrote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #122 July 1, 2006 QuoteI am still not sure what your point is, but now I have a head ache. I'm guessing that's because you already consider what I said as so obvious it didn't need saying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #123 July 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteI am still not sure what your point is, but now I have a head ache. I'm guessing that's because you already consider what I said as so obvious it didn't need saying. No, as I said earlier, I am not sure what your point is and after reading your explanation my head hurts. Its as if you are trying to apply quantum physics to something that can be handled with 3 grade math.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dorbie 0 #124 July 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI am still not sure what your point is, but now I have a head ache. I'm guessing that's because you already consider what I said as so obvious it didn't need saying. No, as I said earlier, I am not sure what your point is and after reading your explanation my head hurts. Its as if you are trying to apply quantum physics to something that can be handled with 3 grade math. Well making a point in a discussion is not the same as scoring a point in a competition if that's not it then good luck, I'm done here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #125 July 1, 2006 QuoteWell making a point in a discussion is not the same as scoring a point in a competition if that's not it then good luck, I'm done here. Once again, I have no idea what that means.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 5 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
dontiego 0 #109 June 29, 2006 Back to horseshoe malfunction on reserve... Why not have a strong spring *below* the reserve bag in the container? If the PC is in horseshoe then the reserve container is open, so this spring would kick the free-bag out. Once the freebag is out, would there be enough drag to straighten the lines and open the bag, if the PC still is attached to the jumper's body? Maybe not so nice to have a spring in your back after the free-bag has left. This spring could also be free and just fall off when it has done its work. That makes one more thing to look after while hiking for your main and handles (irrelevant drawback I think). A cheap biodegradable spring? :) Btw, could someone explain the catapult or give me a link? (I just hope it isn't what I just described). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caspar 0 #110 June 29, 2006 QuoteBtw, could someone explain the catapult or give me a link? (I just hope it isn't what I just described). read the whole thread, it is described earlier on and discussed. at a guess i would of thought that packing a spring under the free bag would be pretty tricky plus you have the orginal spring in there (too much pressure on the closing pin?)"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #111 June 29, 2006 Quote skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play Right up untill it doesn't work properly.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dontiego 0 #112 June 29, 2006 I thought I had read the whole thread. I hadn't. Sorry."We call on the common man to rise up in revolt against this evil of typographical ignorance." http://bancomicsans.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #113 June 29, 2006 QuoteBack to horseshoe malfunction on reserve... Why not have a strong spring *below* the reserve bag in the container? If the PC is in horseshoe then the reserve container is open, so this spring would kick the free-bag out. Once the freebag is out, would there be enough drag to straighten the lines and open the bag, if the PC still is attached to the jumper's body? Maybe not so nice to have a spring in your back after the free-bag has left. This spring could also be free and just fall off when it has done its work. That makes one more thing to look after while hiking for your main and handles (irrelevant drawback I think). A cheap biodegradable spring? :) Btw, could someone explain the catapult or give me a link? (I just hope it isn't what I just described). Not a new idea. Three reasons why it's not a good idea. 1) Pushing the bag out under spring pressure could cause an out of seqence opening damaging or destroying the reserve. 2) A spring is a major snag point weather it's attached to the pack tray or not. 3) Falling debris made of steel. There are a few more reasons but they mainly deal with asthetics, comfort and packing. Mick. Almost forgot, friction staging used on most reserve containers would either have to be eliminated or degraded to the point of being usless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #114 June 29, 2006 QuoteQuote skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play Right up untill it doesn't work properly. And when you can give me the probability of that with one vs the probability of going in with without one I'll be able to make an informed decision, until then I'm left with my armchair guesswork to base my gear decision on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #115 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play Right up untill it doesn't work properly. And when you can give me the probability of that with one vs the probability of going in with without one I'll be able to make an informed decision, until then I'm left with my armchair guesswork to base my gear decision on. And that begs the question; can you give the probability of going in without one vs. the probability of going is with one? I don't think so. So what is your point?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #116 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play Right up untill it doesn't work properly. And when you can give me the probability of that with one vs the probability of going in with without one I'll be able to make an informed decision, until then I'm left with my armchair guesswork to base my gear decision on. And that begs the question; can you give the probability of going in without one vs. the probability of going is with one? I don't think so. So what is your point? You just made my point again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #117 June 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote skyhook has a main yanking on the bridle or it's not in play Right up untill it doesn't work properly. And when you can give me the probability of that with one vs the probability of going in with without one I'll be able to make an informed decision, until then I'm left with my armchair guesswork to base my gear decision on. And that begs the question; can you give the probability of going in without one vs. the probability of going is with one? I don't think so. So what is your point? You just made my point again. I fail to see any point. You do not have any data on the probability of going in with any of the gear you jump. But you still jump it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #118 June 30, 2006 Quote I fail to see any point. You do not have any data on the probability of going in with any of the gear you jump. But you still jump it. That IS my point, everyone does this to some degree. As I said, I'm left with my armchair guesswork to base gear decisions on. Any scenario offered is shoehorned into our personal frame of reference, and it's all about personal perception of risk. Throwing some malfunction into the theoretical mix especially if it's seen as vague or unlikely is not gonna change much if there's an existing perception of a substantial safety benefit. But that's not the point I was trying to make, I've already reitterated what I was trying to say enough times, it's not really obtuse and it stands on its own. I don't actually jump a rig with a skyhook, at some point it the future I'll make that move if product hints I've been given pan out. I'm not going to run out and change my rig for something like this. For me it's a factor that will be weighed when I'm getting another rig. If I jumped a vactor3 I'd probably have had the upgrade done, but I don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #119 July 1, 2006 Throwing some malfunction into the theoretical mix especially if it's seen as vague or unlikely is not gonna change much if there's an existing perception of a substantial safety benefit.*** Why bother witha reserve then.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #120 July 1, 2006 I am still not sure what your point is, but now I have a head ache. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #121 July 1, 2006 QuoteThrowing some malfunction into the theoretical mix especially if it's seen as vague or unlikely is not gonna change much if there's an existing perception of a substantial safety benefit.*** Why bother witha reserve then. Because encountering a main malfunction is actually pretty probable, there's not much doubt there and lots of hard & anectotal evidence on the probability. Why don't you jump a tertiary? I was just making an obvious observation, not trying to start a pisisng contest. Maybe you sould read that earlier post again (first mention of armchair) and consider whether you actually disagree with it. It was not actually intended to refute what you wrote. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #122 July 1, 2006 QuoteI am still not sure what your point is, but now I have a head ache. I'm guessing that's because you already consider what I said as so obvious it didn't need saying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #123 July 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteI am still not sure what your point is, but now I have a head ache. I'm guessing that's because you already consider what I said as so obvious it didn't need saying. No, as I said earlier, I am not sure what your point is and after reading your explanation my head hurts. Its as if you are trying to apply quantum physics to something that can be handled with 3 grade math.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #124 July 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI am still not sure what your point is, but now I have a head ache. I'm guessing that's because you already consider what I said as so obvious it didn't need saying. No, as I said earlier, I am not sure what your point is and after reading your explanation my head hurts. Its as if you are trying to apply quantum physics to something that can be handled with 3 grade math. Well making a point in a discussion is not the same as scoring a point in a competition if that's not it then good luck, I'm done here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #125 July 1, 2006 QuoteWell making a point in a discussion is not the same as scoring a point in a competition if that's not it then good luck, I'm done here. Once again, I have no idea what that means.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
