MakeItHappen 15 #1 June 3, 2006 I just received an email from Ted Strong with these files.: SB 24-5-06 Tandem Passenger Fatality Preliminary Report (previously posted) Harness Instructions large file +6M I couldn't find them on Strong's site yet, but thought you'd like to see them. Ted says the final report will take about another month to finalize.. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #2 June 4, 2006 Strong Service Bulliten: http://www.makeithappen.com/spsj/Ser...tin24.5.06.pdf I guess lots of speculation can end. the TM improperly adjusted the harness according to the manufacturer.. Bummer for him.... I hope it does not legaly come back and bite him. Can it with wording like this from the manufacturer????? Scott"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #3 June 4, 2006 Quote I guess lots of speculation can end. the TM improperly adjusted the harness according to the manufacturer.. Bummer for him.... I hope it does not legaly come back and bite him. Can it with wording like this from the manufacturer????? Scott come on, do you really expect the maufacturer to take ANY of the blame? I don't think putting all the blame on the instructor is right.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #4 June 4, 2006 I am not saying that it is right or wrong though it is what I expected.... Manufacturer saying "it is not us its the users fault" just seems to open a door that I cant imagine anyone wants to have opened.. Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #5 June 5, 2006 I guess the TM can refute Strong's findings by publishing the footage referenced. As far as it legally biting him, most waivers make a point of mentioning that instructors sometimes do it wrong and that the participant accepts this risk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #6 June 7, 2006 Quotecome on, do you really expect the maufacturer to take ANY of the blame? I don't think putting all the blame on the instructor is right. fuck yeah it is!! the back strap and the diagonal adjusters were not done up correctly or at all. he had fuck all tandems and was showing a complete display of complacency. since i heard about the crippled fellow falling out of a harness i really crank the back strap. when the diagonals and back strap are done up it would be impossible to fall out of that hole. don't get me wrong i feel sorry for the poor bastard, but shit man you can't forget what we are doing here. complacency kills, and this is a prime example!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #7 June 7, 2006 QuoteQuotecome on, do you really expect the maufacturer to take ANY of the blame? I don't think putting all the blame on the instructor is right. fuck yeah it is!! the back strap and the diagonal adjusters were not done up correctly or at all. he had fuck all tandems and was showing a complete display of complacency. since i heard about the crippled fellow falling out of a harness i really crank the back strap. when the diagonals and back strap are done up it would be impossible to fall out of that hole. don't get me wrong i feel sorry for the poor bastard, but shit man you can't forget what we are doing here. complacency kills, and this is a prime example! so what about the other instructors there with there thumbs up there ass NOT saying a thing? What about the S&TA, what about the examiner that taught him that way? Our examiner told us to leave the belly band loose so they don't get sick and puke on us! I'm not defending the guy, I just think a blanket "your a dumb ass" attack is not the answer.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #8 June 7, 2006 Quotesince i heard about the crippled fellow falling out of a harness i really crank the back strap. when the diagonals and back strap are done up it would be impossible to fall out of that hole. don't get me wrong i feel sorry for the poor bastard, but shit man you can't forget what we are doing here. More respect for the invalids! Notice that you are just 1 jump away from the wheelchair. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #9 June 7, 2006 Quoteso what about the other instructors there with there thumbs up there ass NOT saying a thing? What about the S&TA, The other instructors and the S&TA were not on the jump. Quotewhat about the examiner that taught him that way? Unless you were in the class with this TI you don't know what the examiner taught him. When a TI straps a passenger on they are accepting full responsibility for the out come of that jump. Any TI that is not willing to accept this fact needs to reevaluate being a TI. As has been posted before, tandem jumps have been done for 22 years with just 2 cases of a passenger falling out of the harness. Over that period of time it is likely that every type of passenger, large, small, short, tall, thin and round, have been hooked up. That would lead me to believe that it can be done safely with the present gear. I think everyone involved in tandems, instructors, manufactures, evaluators and DZO need work together and re-evaluate any and all procedures. Not to look for something wrong or point fingers but to see where procedures can be improved for the good of all. jmoMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 164 #10 June 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteso what about the other instructors there with there thumbs up there ass NOT saying a thing? What about the S&TA, The other instructors and the S&TA were not on the jump. Quotewhat about the examiner that taught him that way? Unless you were in the class with this TI you don't know what the examiner taught him. When a TI straps a passenger on they are accepting full responsibility for the out come of that jump. Any TI that is not willing to accept this fact needs to reevaluate being a TI. As has been posted before, tandem jumps have been done for 22 years with just 2 cases of a passenger falling out of the harness. Over that period of time it is likely that every type of passenger, large, small, short, tall, thin and round, have been hooked up. That would lead me to believe that it can be done safely with the present gear. I think everyone involved in tandems, instructors, manufactures, evaluators and DZO need work together and re-evaluate any and all procedures. Not to look for something wrong or point fingers but to see where procedures can be improved for the good of all. jmo While not excusing anything, and assuming that Ted's evlauation of the video is correct, I could see how this situation could start off... (pure speculation, but with a lesson for us all)... How often do non-TI's put the harness on TS' expecting that the TI will complete the full adjustments? And often TI's meet their next student on the way to the plane barely having time to get their own (next) rig on their shoulders. This back-to-back type of operation is common. Things get crowded, busy, noisy, etc in the plane and the instructor's last two students were fully adjusted by other TI's on the ground... in-plane checks forgotten... (or hard to verify while sitting with a very heavy student). I would like to see instructors stop the back-to-back runs and dress, adjust, instruct, etc... each student they take (something I insisted on while instructing). Just my $.02, and while I think something to think on, I reitterate that I have NO personal knowledge of what happened in either recent incidents. Keep it safe guys (and gals), JimAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #11 June 7, 2006 QuoteThings get crowded, busy, noisy, etc in the plane and the instructor's last two students were fully adjusted by other TI's on the ground... in-plane checks forgotten... (or hard to verify while sitting with a very heavy student). I would like to see instructors stop the back-to-back runs and dress, adjust, instruct, etc... each student they take (something I insisted on while instructing). Just my $.02, and while I think something to think on, I reitterate that I have NO personal knowledge of what happened in either recent incidents. While I am not a TI I have seen the conditions you describe. If this presents an opportunity for important steps to be missed it would represent the procedures I was referring to. But all I can do is suggest a possible action; it is up to those involved in tandems at all levels to use their expertise to develop any changes that might be needed. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #12 June 8, 2006 QuoteWhat about the S&TA, what about the examiner that taught him that way? Our examiner told us to leave the belly band loose so they don't get sick and puke on us! leaving the belly band loos and leaving the back strapand diagonal back adjusters are two completely separate issues! some student harnesses do not have a belly band at all! i don't think and I/E would ever teach a t/M to not tighten the back strap and diagonal adjusters! and if they do they should have thier rating pulled! i was no attacking the man i was simply stating that the maufacturer has nothing to do with the incident. i jump strong as well and there is no way a customer could fall out of the harness if adjusted correctly!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #13 June 8, 2006 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- since i heard about the crippled fellow falling out of a harness i really crank the back strap. when the diagonals and back strap are done up it would be impossible to fall out of that hole. don't get me wrong i feel sorry for the poor bastard, but shit man you can't forget what we are doing here. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More respect for the invalids! Notice that you are just 1 jump away from the wheelchair. what is wrong with the word crippled? and i think the tandem instructor in question is the 'poor bastard' he must feel like shit. what do you mean i am 1 jump away from the wheelchair?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #14 June 8, 2006 Quotewhat do you mean i am 1 jump away from the wheelchair? Any curve can be the last if you ride a bike. You don't know what is the outcome of the jump when you are boarding the plane. It can happen to you or anyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #15 June 8, 2006 I'd like to think it is 99.9% less likely to happen to me as i am far less than complacent with my customers harnesses. I have nightmares about that sort of shit and to hear about people that simply do not do thier customers harness up vitually at all really shocks me! sounds like you are defending the man?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #16 June 9, 2006 Quote and to hear about people that simply do not do thier customers harness up vitually at all really shocks me! i know more than one place where it is the common practice of the TIs that their customers enter the plane with a loose harness. useless pointing it out, cause you are shure to get snarled at that this is none of your f**** business - even if you are a TI yourself i wonder why the majority of these TI's are vector & sigma rated The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #17 June 9, 2006 my point is that unless you the guy and know how he is around students, it's stupid to just blatently say he was grossly negligent. My examiner taught us to keep the bellyband loose. That's NOT how the strong wants it done. Maybe this guy was taught that way. Once again, I'm not defending the guy. I think he's going through enough. QuoteThe other instructors and the S&TA were not on the jump. no, but they are at the DZ, and they do see these things.....and for them NOT to say something...well, what the fuck.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #18 June 9, 2006 Quotemy point is that unless you the guy and know how he is around students, it's stupid to just blatently say he was grossly negligent. My examiner taught us to keep the bellyband loose. That's NOT how the strong wants it done. Maybe this guy was taught that way. Once again, I'm not defending the guy. I think he's going through enough. QuoteThe other instructors and the S&TA were not on the jump. no, but they are at the DZ, and they do see these things.....and for them NOT to say something...well, what the fuck. Both of your points are valid, but unless we were there we have no way of knowing for sure was said and what steps were taken to insure passenger safety. My point was in the final analyses the TI was the person in charge of the jump. The responsibly for that jump rests on his/her shoulders.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cornishe 0 #19 June 12, 2006 although the findings make sense and i do not disagree with tem, the manufacturer should NOT have been conducting the inspection of this fatality. This is bad practice as there is a strong vested interest in finding the equipment sound. My 2c. -amAbbie Mashaal Skydive Idaho Snake River Skydiving TandemBASE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
padalcek 9 #20 June 16, 2006 Quote although the findings make sense and i do not disagree with tem, the manufacturer should NOT have been conducting the inspection of this fatality. This is bad practice as there is a strong vested interest in finding the equipment sound. My 2c. skydiving is a pretty small and complex industry. if you don't trust the manufacturer, do tell, who is there that knows more about specific equipment. who is there that is more "qualified" to find out what happened? in a pool of potential customers that is as small as ours manufacturers have a vested interest in making sure that their equipment works. they have nothing to gain by "finding the equipment sound" (as you put it) if it's not. keeping your customers alive is the only way to make sure you sell them more stuff down the road. as far as i've seen identifying the problem and fixing it has always been the practice by anybody involved in production of skydiving equipment.Padalcek - CCO, HF-17 http://www.theflyinghellfish.com I'm not a real skydiver - but I do play one on dz.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #21 June 17, 2006 ... the manufacturer should NOT have been conducting the inspection of this fatality. This is bad practice as there is a strong vested interest in finding the equipment sound. My 2c. skydiving is a pretty small and complex industry. if you don't trust the manufacturer, do tell, who is there that knows more about specific equipment. who is there that is more "qualified" to find out what happened? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When that tandem "went in" at Abbottsford in the early 1990s, Transport Canada had the devil of a time finding a qualified independent investigator that was not working for Relative Workshop or one of their competitors. Eventually they hired parachute designer Bill Gargano, who had never made a tandem rig, but had plenty of experience designing canopies and even manufactured Pigmee containers for a while. After a thorough investigation, Gargano concluded that the corpses were found at the end of a long trail of rigging errors and Relative Workshop was found blaimless. All of the evidence was shared with Relative Workshop and shortly thereafter, RWS made AADs mandatory for their tandems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
padalcek 9 #22 June 18, 2006 QuoteTransport Canada had the devil of a time finding a qualified independent investigator that was not working for Relative Workshop or one of their competitors. ... concluded that the corpses were found at the end of a long trail of rigging errors and Relative Workshop was found blaimless. i do believe you just proved my point.Padalcek - CCO, HF-17 http://www.theflyinghellfish.com I'm not a real skydiver - but I do play one on dz.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #23 June 18, 2006 QuoteI do believe you just proved my point. Huh? That Bill Gargano was secretly in the pay of Bill Booth? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
padalcek 9 #24 June 18, 2006 QuoteHuh? That Bill Gargano was secretly in the pay of Bill Booth? as i said in the previous post: Quoteif you don't trust the manufacturer, do tell, who is there that knows more about specific equipment. who is there that is more "qualified" to find out what happened? several people have made statements questioning manufacturers integrity during incident investigations. not one of these people has yet come forward with any proof or indication that manufacturers are in some way or another hindering the investigations or trying to "sweep things under the carpet". or are you trying to say that you have such proof? if so, not only i but a lot of other skydivers (not to mention faa guys) would like to know what you know. so please - do share.Padalcek - CCO, HF-17 http://www.theflyinghellfish.com I'm not a real skydiver - but I do play one on dz.com. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #25 June 18, 2006 Oops, my mistake. We agree. I was confused by riggerrob's quotation style, responding to cornishe's post. I apologize. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
