performance upgrades over downsizing

[countzero 7]

though i'm aways from getting my own gear, i've been doing lots reasearch and reading. and with all the info on the good and the bad of downsizing too soon.

i got to thinking, why not do a performance upgrade instead?

like say: going from a 7 to a 9 cell, or from a non (or mostly non) zero-p to a zero-p. or from a basic canopy to a more elliptical one. yet stay at the same size but get a faster/funner caonpy flight.

as an example- going from synergy 170 to a fusion 170, then later going to a nitron 170.

all thougths, input welcome. cheers.

diamonds are a dawgs best friend

[bigway 4]

That would be good thinking my friend.

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[caspar 0]

yeah i was thinking the same thing...pilot 168 - safire 2 169 - crossfire 2 169.

it also means you dont have to get a new container / reserve as soon.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[bigway 4]

Why would you go from a pilot to a safire the same size? Not much difference.

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[jakee 1,594]

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yeah i was thinking the same thing...pilot 168 - safire 2 169 - crossfire 2 169.

Like bigway said, the pilot and Safire2 are designed to fill the same niche in the market, along with the Sabre2 and others. Now I do really, really like the way the Safire2 flies but I doubt it will perform any better than the pilot.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[GravityGirl 0]

Because the reason you would jump a Crossfire2 is likely because you want to do high performance landings.

In order to do a high performance landing you have bring it up to a desent wing loading. It will ease the front riser pressure and the loading will keep you in the dive long enough to build up speed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Squeak 17]

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Because the reason you would jump a Crossfire2 is likely because you want to do high performance landings.

I would not say it's likely, it is a reason to go HP but by no means the only one or even the most likely one.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[GravityGirl 0]

Then what would you say would be the most likely reason.

In my experience, I would say about 90% of my customers that go to that high of a performance parachute do so for high performance landings.

The other 10% perhaps for openings and maneuverability in the air. For example AFF or Video jumpers that get out last, but want to maneuver around other jumpers and get on the ground quickly to make that back-to-back.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Squeak 17]

I would say most buy their 1st HP because of ego. Not through any particular "NEED" for a HP canopy.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[mjosparky 4]

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I would say most buy their 1st HP because of ego. Not through any particular "NEED" for a HP canopy.

There might be more to that then we think.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Because the reason you would jump a Crossfire2 is likely because you want to do high performance landings.

In order to do a high performance landing you have bring it up to a desent wing loading. It will ease the front riser pressure and the loading will keep you in the dive long enough to build up speed.

I have to disagree with the need for a higher wingloading. I have seen many world class canopy pilots swoop student sized canopies impressively. It is pilot skill and technique, not canopy size, that makes a good high performance landing.

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[caspar 0]

i found a cheap pilot for sale. i tried all the canopies at perris and thought the safire2 was the best by far. going to wait until i can afford it.

i thought safire2 was semi-elliptical and crossfire2 fully elliptical. i say crossfire 2 purley because i thought the safire2 kicked ass compared the other canopies i tried.

i want to downsize as slowly as possible but obviously have fun under canopy.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[Buried 0]

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Now I do really, really like the way the Safire2 flies but I doubt it will perform any better than the pilot.

i don't think i would agree with that statement.... There are reasons why the pilot is selected more often for WS pilots than a sabre2 or a safire2.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[jakee 1,594]

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i thought safire2 was semi-elliptical and crossfire2 fully elliptical. i say crossfire 2 purley because i thought the safire2 kicked ass compared the other canopies i tried.

The Safire2 is semi elliptical, so is the pilot/sabre2. If you want to replace a pilot with a Safire2 because you prefer the way it flies then more power to you, it's a damn fun canopy. I just don't think you can expect a truely noticable performance upgrade with that step.

Buried:

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i don't think i would agree with that statement.... There are reasons why the pilot is selected more often for WS pilots than a sabre2 or a safire2.

I didn't know it was. The way a canopy opens doesn't neccesarily tell you about its performance levels though right? I've only used my sabre1 on wingsuit jumps but I wouldn't hesitate to use a Safire2 or Sabre2 if I could afford to buy new gear. I also know people who like Pilots because they felt it performed better for them than Safire2/sabre2. As far as I can tell the biggest difference between those canopies is the way they feel in flight rather than how high performance they are.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[GravityGirl 0]

Sure a world class canopy pilot can swoop anything.

But a beginner or novice pilot can't swoop anything... yet.

It's important to get the right combination of riser pressure, recovery arch and such. Start off conservative for sure. But use the right tools for the job.

I used to try to hook my Sabre 135. I weighed in at 125 by the way. My turn was very inconsistant because the front riser pressure was very high. Combine that with the fact that I had not developed the technique yet.

So I workd on technique, but didn't do turns anymore until I got on a Stiletto 120. Then I began to get conisistant with 45, then 90s.

There is a lot to learn on a conservative wing. That step should never be skipped.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[GravityGirl 0]

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I would say most buy their 1st HP because of ego. Not through any particular "NEED" for a HP canopy.

You say ego like it's a bad thing.

There is a fine line between ego and confidence. Confidence is rather necessary in our sport.

That's part of it. But that's part of being competative and wanting to progress too. Nothing wrong with a little ego. Just keep each other in check. I have to be smacked down every now and again.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[mjosparky 4]

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I have to be smacked down every now and again.

But as happens far too often, some people get smacked down and they end up dead.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Buried 0]

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The Safire2 is semi elliptical, so is the pilot/sabre2. If you want to replace a pilot with a Safire2 because you prefer the way it flies then more power to you, it's a damn fun canopy. I just don't think you can expect a truely noticable performance upgrade with that step.

yup, correct. the 3 or 4 canopies all have their little differences. its just want you like and what you see how that canopy can help you learn more on your long term canopy and skydiving goals.

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I didn't know it was. The way a canopy opens doesn't neccesarily tell you about its performance levels though right? ... snip.. I also know people who like Pilots because they felt it performed better for them than Safire2/sabre2. As far as I can tell the biggest difference between those canopies is the way they feel in flight rather than how high performance they are.

True. I guess i should have also said they've more recently are becoming more and more popular b/c of the opening chars, and being less twitchy while in brakes at higher WL safely with WS (not saying the others are that twichy, but I found to be a little more) . Sabre2s and safires also perform nicely under higher wingloads but I've felt that there is a little more performance out of pilot. could be b/c of the slightly different trim/glide angle. They really are all fine semi-elip canopies since they are in the same competing niche, but seem to perform differently at different wingloading ranges. Any of those canopies will work fine for WS. and if you really want to be safer, go with 7 cell like a spectre.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[billvon 3,111]

>as an example- going from synergy 170 to a fusion 170, then later
>going to a nitron 170.

You can do that, but I don't know if the cost would be worth it. You're going to notice a big difference between a Pilot 117 and a Nitro 120 but not such a big difference between a Fusion 170 and a Nitro 170.

OTOH, if you get a good deal/trade going, then it might be a good idea. If nothing else it will show you how canopy design affects flight.

[bob.dino 1]

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I have to be smacked down every now and again.

Ok . It's a recovery arc, not arch. Arches are used in building bridges. Arcs are curved lines, as in, for example, the arc described by a parachute returning to normal flight from accelerated flight.

[GravityGirl 0]

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I have to be smacked down every now and again.

But as happens far too often, some people get smacked down and they end up dead.

I don't mean smacked down like that. I meant by my peirs.

Continue to educate and teach other without using the blanket, "Don't do that! It will kill you." More like, "If you want to do that, here is the proper path to take to become a better pilot and develope skills to do that properly."

I feel fortunate to jump/work at a DZ that nurtures continuous education. We encourage goals and support the path to attaining those goals.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[jojo0815 0]

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yeah i was thinking the same thing...pilot 168 - safire 2 169 - crossfire 2 169.

I might be a little late but here it comes. I have gone through the same thing in the last 2 years. a lot of people have different opinions about how to downsize, how fast and what skills you should acquire before moving on to the next canopy. most conservative coaches have a hard time with their students because the students don't have the patients.
Icarus Canopies' recommended WL for the Crossfire2 is 1.4-2.1 psf. I personally have jumped CF2's loaded at 1.2 and they are not that much fun. they are mushy when under loaded and all you are adding to your skydiving experience are the potential opening problems of an elliptical canopy.
if you are flying let's say a Silhouette 170 right now and you go to a Safire2/Sabre2/Pilot of the same size you will have more glide, more penetration and more fun yes. if you are interested in HP landings you should learn them on a semi elliptical canopy. the simple reason for that is they are more forgiving. you can pull yourself out of the corner where you would have bounced on a HP canopy. you can get very decent swoops out of today's semi ellipticals and you don't have to deal with spinning line twists and such. personally I would suggest to get up to a 1.5 WL on a semi elliptical and then transition to an elliptical of the same size. going the fast lane with downsizing will not only be dangerous but it will also slow down your progression. I have seen that happen many times. and I agree on the ego thing. a lot of people go to an elliptical because it's cool. in reality they have no business on that canopy. as a rule of thumb.... don't go to an elliptical unless you have at least 500 jumps and don't even think about cross braces until at least 1000 jumps. definitely master one canopy before you go to the next one. I have 1000 jumps now and I still have a lot to learn on my CF2 that I am loading at 1.8 psf.

Blue Skies... stay safe

[bigway 4]

so is all that enough advice for you or did it get a bit too much

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[countzero 7]

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so is all that enough advice for you or did it get a bit too much

not too much info at all. i feel the more informed i can be the better. thanks for all the replies!

diamonds are a dawgs best friend