councilman24 37 #1 May 7, 2006 I just was cleaning my desk and found a copy of the BPA sealing method. Form 215 at http://bpa.org.uk/forms.htm Does anybody else think that sticking a needle in a packed reserve is a bad idea? I've never understood how they support this idea. One of the basics I was taught 25 years ago was to never do any sewing on a packed container. Now, it would take a heavy hand to get through flaps to the free bag or canopy. And seal thread might not cause much of a problem. But giving somebody the idea of sewing on a packed container doesn't seem to be a go idea to me. But then I'm paranoid.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #2 May 7, 2006 Hi Terry, I have a copy of that document also. The first thing I thought of was Patrick De Gayardon. If memory serves me he did some minor rigging to his container that involved hand stitching. On the next jump he had a malfunction and the reserve fail because of that tacking. I would think common sense would tell someone not to stitch a packed container. But then common sense in not that common anymore.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigger_john 0 #3 May 7, 2006 QuoteDoes anybody else think that sticking a needle in a packed reserve is a bad idea? I've never understood how they support this idea. One of the basics I was taught 25 years ago was to never do any sewing on a packed container. Now, it would take a heavy hand to get through flaps to the free bag or canopy. And seal thread might not cause much of a problem. But giving somebody the idea of sewing on a packed container doesn't seem to be a go idea to me. But then I'm paranoid. Hi Terry, I was one of the riggers on the committee when the BPA method was adopted. For a long time the use of seals was strictly forbidden in the UK. This is because they have been know to get into the grommet on more than one occasion when attached using the FAA method. This cased a fatality in Norway but I can't remember exactly when that was. The BPA method requires the use of a single layer of seal thread which passes through the top layer of fabric on the pin flap, normaly there is a layer of plastic, generaly 1mm polyurathane under that layer. Remember Riggers working under the BPA system are packing sports containers. Also we have been using this method for at least 4 years and we have not had one single problem. Every malfunction in the UK is reported to the riggers committee. regards_________________________________________ Nullius in Verba Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pjc 0 #4 May 7, 2006 As sealing of reserves isn't required in the UK, if a rigger seals a reserve packjob on my rig, could I remove the seal if I wanted to?? PJ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #5 May 7, 2006 Terry, That - BPA - method was in response to a goof who sealed a reserve with nylon E thread (8.5 pounds) instead of the usual cotton seal thread (4.7 pounds). The BPA method strikes me as "doing it the hard way." Using the old method CORRECTLY would also solve the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #6 May 7, 2006 I think there is a world of difference between using a turn of seal thread and sewing material to the side of your container. I think the problem is that we as riggers are hard wired to avoid sewing anything to a packed reserve, I gives me the willies! But thinking about it logically, you would have to really force it to push the needle through the lexan. I'm sure some rigger out there got nervous the first time he was told to tack down risers with 3 cord or tack toggles with seal thread. I boils down to perspective.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifallout 0 #7 May 7, 2006 I think that generally speaking, there is not a good reason for sewing anything to a closed container. I am not saying if done correctly it would cause a problem, but I don't see it as a good habit. Are you saying, there is a recorded instance of the seal getting into a gromet and causing a container to not open? Bill have fun, love life, be nice to the humans Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #8 May 7, 2006 Quote I think that generally speaking, there is not a good reason for sewing anything to a closed container. I am not saying if done correctly it would cause a problem, but I don't see it as a good habit. That proves my point. Anyway, the BPA feel the avoidance of increasing the pull force required on the reserve pin is worth the incredibly low risk of a rigger forcing a needle through the lexan. I guess another question would be; are riggers accidently using e thread when sealing containers and is it a significant enough problem to warrant a new sealing procedure?I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifallout 0 #9 May 7, 2006 If that proves your point I guess I must be missing the point? Is your point that there is a greater chance of a rigger using the wrong thread in sealing a rig, than there is of the same rigger making a mistake and sewing through a flap and into a canopy. It would seem to me, if we were making assumptions, mine would be that any rigger that can't tell the difference in seal thread and E thread might not be able to tell what he/she was sewing through either. And again, my question was, is there an instance where a seal got into a gromet and prevented the opening of a flap, which was the example I posted about. I can't find any instance where that is documented, and the example given is pretty vauge. I would think that if the problem is that some rigger used E thread, instead of seal thread, changing the seal process is not the needed fix. Bill have fun, love life, be nice to the humans Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #10 May 7, 2006 my point was that we as riggers are hard-wired to be opposed to sewing anything to a pack rig. shortly after I posted that, you exclaimed that you didn't like the idea of sewing anything to a packed rig.(I'm paraphrasing) but it made my origional point so clear, I thought I'd mention it. That's all, I seal everything FAA style and never use scissor to cut seal thread. Works fine for me.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ifallout 0 #11 May 8, 2006 got it. me too. Bill have fun, love life, be nice to the humans Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #12 May 8, 2006 As far as I know there is no "FAA" method for sealing. I've never seen anything published by the FAA. I take that back. There WAS no FAA method. Now that FAA has published the Parachute Rigger Handbook written by Sandy there IS an FAA method. I've seen several methods used. Of course all have the property that if you pull the pin you break the thread and that you can't untie the seal thread without removing the seal.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #13 May 8, 2006 QuoteRemember Riggers working under the BPA system are packing sports containers. Who packs pilot emergency rigs in the UK? BPA riggers or somebody else? I'd never thought about it but the above statement seems to imply that BPA riggers don't pack pilot emergency rigs and I realized that I don't know. Part of the reason I started this thread was for the discussion happening. I've been trying to think of a rig that might offer a chance of catching a canopy or free bag. I can't remember if a Strong Chair with three pins has a stiffener at the last pin. Not sure. But it is one that might allow catching a canopy. It wasn't a real objection to the procedure, especially since seals aren't manditory. BTW what is the reason seals aren't manditory? The same problem issue or something else? Irregardless, part of my concern was someone looking at this, BPA or not, would transfer the idea of tacking to a packed container to something else. Just something that came to mind late last night.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #14 May 8, 2006 Irregardless, WORD POLICE INFRACTION HERE!!! Terry I hate to bust ya' chops but "irregardless" is NOT a word. It's either regardless or without regard to (sic). No harm ment, it's just that this word drives me nutz.........As you were. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #15 May 8, 2006 QuoteI think the problem is that we as riggers are hard wired to avoid sewing anything to a packed reserve, And the reason for most of these "hard wired" connections came into being are written in blood. I remember a quote for Al Frisby, “If you can imagine it, it can happen.”My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #16 May 8, 2006 I seem to remember (too many dead brain cells) many years ago some rigs had a small loop of 3/8 in. tape sewn onto the last closing flap and the seal thread would pass through it. Does anyone else recall this?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #17 May 8, 2006 What are you smokin? Nope, never saw that. Haven't been around quite as long as you. What kind of rig do you think it was on? Early sport rigs, pilot rigs, military rigs?I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #18 May 8, 2006 Properly chastized. But, GET A LIFE MICK
