CSpenceFLY 1 #51 December 10, 2007 I would not wear one if you gave it to me unless HH said they were alright by him. Any way you look at it they are profiting from his logo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #52 December 10, 2007 QuoteI would not wear one if you gave it to me unless HH said they were alright by him. Any way you look at it they are profiting from his logo. That was the whole point :) I am surprised by some of the response and even more from some of the people that made them. I wouldn't sue the guy and never even mentioned that option. They are Skydivers so they know a beat down is the appropriate response to ripping off another jumper. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrismgtis 0 #53 December 10, 2007 Quote I get pissed every time I hear about a company suing over stuff like this. Sure, if someone opened Dropzone.net (it's for sale!) and used such a similar logo that a visitor might think that the sites are associated, that would be a problem. But making a perfectly funny joke out of a logo, legal or not, should be encouraged because it's funny! Dave I think I have to agree. People sue too quickly and win cases that just have no real merit and set way too much stupid precedent. It's not really hurting anyone to sale these. Yea, someone could be making a buck off each shirt, but hey it promotes the site in a way. Mostly to those that already know about it or ask questions when they see it and DropZone.com is mentioned as a result... but the fact is it's not like whoever is selling these will make a lot of money. Most kinds of promotion are good promotion. The record labels are losing a lot of money and creating a very bad name for themselves for reasons just like that. Some things you just have to let go and realize that they help more than hurt and when you're getting any promotion for free it's a good thing. The shirts look cheap anyway. Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033 Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allaxis.ca 0 #54 December 11, 2007 WOW!!!! That's a lot of chatter over a T-Shirt. Thank you to my friend Mark who forwarded this thread to me. Firstly, I, in no way, meant do downplay the value of Dropzone.com and its affect on the skydiving industry. It has allowed us all to have a place, outside of our respective skydiving centers, to vent, learn, buy, sell and discover more about the sport we all love. I have been a member of Dropzone.com for years and will continue to be one for years to come. Now let’s get to the point at hand. The art of parody has been around as long as art itself. “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery” appears in Charles Caleb Colton's Lacon (1820) Let's look at the history of MY parody shirt. It all starts here.... Please check the date of the start of the thread. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1204775;search_string=font;#1204775 I first produced this shirt as a means to survive because I had been injured in a plane crash… http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1321894;search_string=mike%20x;#1321894 I sold maybe 10 shirts at that time and people appreciated the humor behind it. I guarantee that 10 shirts does not make you a fortune, but it does equal rice and beans for 6 months. Since then I have not produce many (if any) more. I decided to revamp the designs this year because of the lack of fun shirts on the market. It’s really that simple…. #### Regarding the legalities behind the design… Here are some outside information reference points that may be of interest. *** Appropriation Art http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appropriation_(art) *** Art Parody http://www.princetonol.com/groups/iad/lessons/high/Lauren-cards.htm And of course we all recognize these images…. http://www.jumpersportswear.com/images/apparel/0042T.jpg... Snickers http://www.jumpersportswear.com/images/apparel/0038T.jpg... Budwiser http://www.jumpersportswear.com/images/apparel/0020T.jpg... Survivor http://www.jumpersportswear.com/images/apparel/0047T.jpg... Superman http://www.jumpersportswear.com/images/apparel/0037T.jpg... Da Vinci ... produced by a very reputable company. And how about the 1,520 skydiving designs on 33,400 products available at cafepress. WOW!!! Does this one ever look like the one I designed in 2002!!! http://www.cafepress.com/buy/skydiving/-/pv_design_details/pg_2/id_653531/opt_/fpt_/c_666/ or http://www.cafepress.com/buy/skydiving/-/pv_design_prod/p_storeid.10729107/pNo_10729107/id_4276085/opt_/pg_/c_/fpt_ Where is the reference to Altimaster in this item? ####Specifics “The content and software on this site may be used as a resource. Any other use, including the reproduction, modification, distribution, transmission, republication, display, or performance, of the content on this site is strictly prohibited.” I feel that I have followed these broad legalities. I did use the Drpozone.com logo as a reference resource but I did not reproduce, modify or republish the logo. Of course we all recognize the similarities, but each element was created individually. I did not use the font described in the first link and subsequent text (bum? kid? slut?) are all true statements of who we are. I’d love work with Sangrio and have these parody shirts be a part of his stock. I’m sure this thread wouldn’t exist if I had simply communicated with him regarding this. (I think I will!) ####And now for responses to thread comments. ExAfo - “I say it's the skyride peeps behind this” mx - Please. I too understand the hard work people put into their life endeavors. Skyride, in my opinion, does not have a heart behind its organization. I feel these shirts HAVE a heart and are to be worn by people whose lives revolve around the DZ. We all know dropzone bums, sluts and kids. jtval - “Holy shit, $35? Does that come with a blow job?” squeak - “i have no issue with it other than the price $35.00 for a T shirt BLOWS” mx -Well, sorry jtval, no blow job for you. The cost of the shirt is, by no means, outrageous. Factor in buying QUALITY shirts individually, $6-$8 each. I do print the designs myself and even that heat transfer is costly, $2+ per sheet. The cost of postage in Canada IS outrageous!!! I have priced these for all states and provinces. It costs me almost $11 to ship to BC, $9 to California, $7 to Florida and $10 to Canada’s maritime, not including the packaging itself. The average shipping cost on a ‘custom t-shirt’ on ebay is $12 and it will always total around $30+ for a custom shirt. I make, maybe, $3-4 per shirt, maybe. and squeak – It’s $35 for a long sleeve shirt. The T Shirts are only $32. Grips – “Not to mention two bill to get it shipped to Oz.” mx – Airmail, to the other side of the planet. Otherwise, ground shipping is considerably cheaper if you are willing to wait the 8-12 weeks it typically takes, if it doesn’t get lost. catfishhunter (cfh) - “…I'll order a shirt because they are cool.” mx- thank you. cfh - “But if they are stealing the logo and profiting off what HH has built…” mx- Um…. Andy Warhol, Campbell’s Soup? Anyone??? Bueller?? cfh “ …then yeah kick them in the nuts.” and… “ …then a beat down should take place in Toronto.” and… “ …someone in Toronto kick those guys in the nuts.” and… “ If someone tried to steal my company Logo… you can rest assured I would make damn sure they wished they hadn't.” and… “ They are Skydivers so they know a beat down is the appropriate response to ripping off another jumper.” mx- Great! Now I’m being threatened with physical violence, or is that the typical mentality that perpetuates the notion that America is a violent and law-suit hungry nation. Having lived in Florida for 7 years I know that my fellow skydivers come in all shapes and sizes and not all of them resort to violence the moment one of their beloved icons becomes a point of interest. cfh – “…try making a shirt with the Nike Swoosh…” mx – WOO-HOO! Done!!!! http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/detail_page.cgi?ID=56630;d=1 To everybody involved, interested or who simply has expressed their opinion… and especially to Sangrio, I’m sorry to have caused such a stir. These designs are simply done to pay homage to my life and to others who may share my opinion, values and experiences. It gives me great pleasure to see my artwork displayed in various places and formats, (does anyone like my photo in the centerfold of this months Parachutist Magazine?) and I’m honored to have a complete thread dedicated to one of my designs. All I can ask is that the next time any of you are producing an artistic tandem, year-end or YouTube video, with that popular song that you downloaded from your favorite bit-torrent site, that you play from your iPod or burnt CD, and claim as your own realize the similarities between what you are doing and what I have done. Woe the day that Bono comes after us all for our liberal usage and adaptation of HIS songs, Where The Streets Have No Name, Vertigo and of course, Beautiful Day. Yours truly Mike ‘X’ McKinlay USPA D-22966, AFFI, Coach, Tandem, Pro CSPA C-2311, IB, C2, EJR, Tandem etc. skydive_mister_x@yahoo.com http://allaxis.ca ps. I’ll always be a dropzone bum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #55 December 11, 2007 Sorry, could you repeat that please?Being a member for years may I ask why the new username? .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shell666 0 #56 December 11, 2007 Quote or http://www.cafepress.com/buy/skydiving/-/pv_design_prod/p_storeid.10729107/pNo_10729107/id_4276085/opt_/pg_/c_/fpt_ Where is the reference to Altimaster in this item?[/url] It's probably covered here http://www.cafepress.com/cp/info/help/cup.aspx Quote ####Specifics “The content and software on this site may be used as a resource. Any other use, including the reproduction, modification, distribution, transmission, republication, display, or performance, of the content on this site is strictly prohibited.” I feel that I have followed these broad legalities. I did use the Drpozone.com logo as a reference resource but I did not reproduce, modify or republish the logo. Of course we all recognize the similarities, but each element was created individually. I did not use the font described in the first link and subsequent text (bum? kid? slut?) are all true statements of who we are. Probably a better definition (and a more complete one) here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=598 Quote I’d love work with Sangrio and have these parody shirts be a part of his stock. I’m sure this thread wouldn’t exist if I had simply communicated with him regarding this. (I think I will!) Probably should have done that to begin with. The shirts are funny. They really are. I would love to have one. But messing with a design from a FREE forum where you can connect with other people in the same "industry" as you are is, in my opinion, not classy at all. I'm not saying there should be a lawsuit over this. That wouldn't solve anything. As I said before, it's one thing to parody a logo or design and use it for something completely different than it's original intention (a beer logo to a skydiving t-shirt logo -- a chocolate bar logo to a skydiving t-shirt logo). It's completely different when you parody a logo or design and use it for the same intention (a skydiving forum logo to a skydiving t-shirt logo). Your designs are funny and I like them. But produce them in the appropriate way. 'Shell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #57 December 11, 2007 How do ya feel about some asshole that would take a skydiving TEE-SHIRT design and use it on a skydiving forum? (oh shit) ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shell666 0 #58 December 11, 2007 Quote How do ya feel about some asshole that would take a skydiving TEE-SHIRT design and use it on a skydiving forum? (oh shit) It's you. You're old. You don't remember what you did 30 seconds ago so it's all good. BTW, do you remember if you're profiting from it??? 'Shell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #59 December 11, 2007 Quote “ mx- Um…. Andy Warhol, Campbell’s Soup? Anyone??? Bueller?? . Obviously, it's up to HH to feel/act as he pleases, but to compare the work to Warhol?Warhol was not parody (and neither are these shirts, IMO) but rather making social commentary, and the reason he specifically chose soup cans as his subject for the hand-drawn, manually transferred 4 screen soup can design was so as to not compete with nor be compared to another artist. Moreover, if the community that supports DZ.com is opposed to a fellow skydiver taking money from HH's hard works, shouldn't conscience preclude the continued manufacture of the shirts? Had Campbell's Soup had issues with Warhol, it's a big, faceless corporation slamming a little guy. In this case, assuming Sangiro isn't cool with it, it's a brother slamming a brother. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #60 December 11, 2007 After everything you said it still comes down to the fact your stole from HH with the intent of profiting off the stolen material. you can try to justify your theft all you want. But stealing is stealing. Doesn't matter if camera guys are "stealing" songs or some other person is stealing from you etc etc. the fact is you stole from HH and yes I think a good ass whoopin is preferable to the court system. After a good whoopin it is still possible for the whooper to be friends with the whoopee if the whoopee learns the lesson. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #61 December 11, 2007 What if it was a parody of the USPA logo? Would that bother you? Don't forget that dropzone.com has over twice the membership of USPA. Dropzone.com is HUGE. Perfect target for parody. And this is a parody of just the logo, not the site in any way. Not making fun of the site or the logo, just tweaking it a little into a pretty funny joke. But $35 is still out of my price range. Those things could be screen printed for under $10 each (including the cost of the shirt) if they were bought in bulk. Could even sell them at zazzle.com for less than $35, and they do all the work selling em. Real nice quality... Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #62 December 11, 2007 Quote What if it was a parody of the USPA logo? Would that bother you? Don't forget that dropzone.com has over twice the membership of USPA. Dropzone.com is HUGE. Perfect target for parody. And this is a parody of just the logo, not the site in any way. Not making fun of the site or the logo, just tweaking it a little into a pretty funny joke. Dave You're smarter then that Dave. Trying to use 2 wrongs to make a right is the same arguement he was trying to use. "if joe stole from sue and I stole from you it's ok because everyone hated sue and was glad joe stole from her" MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #63 December 11, 2007 QuoteWhat if it was a parody of the USPA logo? Would that bother you? Don't forget that dropzone.com has over twice the membership of USPA. Dropzone.com is HUGE. Perfect target for parody. And this is a parody of just the logo, not the site in any way. Not making fun of the site or the logo, just tweaking it a little into a pretty funny joke. But $35 is still out of my price range. Those things could be screen printed for under $10 each (including the cost of the shirt) if they were bought in bulk. Could even sell them at zazzle.com for less than $35, and they do all the work selling em. Real nice quality... Dave A-I don't find the shirts as parody. Kinda doubt a court would either. If there is a likelihood of confusion as to the originator of the parodical product, then it doesn't qualify as parody. I'd imagine that there are those that might think HH originated the shirts. Weird Al Yankovic, master of parody (and ground breaker in the legal channel of the concept) goes well out of his way to be sure no one could ever confuse him with the original artist. These go as far as they can to portray the original art work. B-don't think the comparison is an appropriate comparison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #64 December 11, 2007 Wow so not only is my first edition shirt very rare, it's probably the only to go out of a B-17. Good to hear from ya, been too long. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conundrum 1 #65 December 11, 2007 I wonder if all the parody t-shirts in this month's parachutists are giving monies to the original company. If they aren't they shoud have their asses beat! Snickers, Superman, Survivor, just to name a few. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shell666 0 #66 December 11, 2007 Quote I wonder if all the parody t-shirts in this month's parachutists are giving monies to the original company. If they aren't they shoud have their asses beat! Snickers, Superman, Survivor, just to name a few. They probably aren't because, I'm pretty sure, their main income isn't affected by a "parody" of their original work (or item, or icon or idea). I guess the definition of "parody" is a little grey. Otherwise they'd fight it and win. What I can't believe is that some people that are using a "free" website, to voice their opinions on ANYTHING, think it's "okay" for someone else to use a logo very similar to that same website and profit from it. Maybe I'm naive to think that it should bother you. If you were an artist, would it bother YOU if some copied your work, altered it a bit, and then sold it for profit? Just my opinion. 'Shell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #67 December 11, 2007 QuoteI wonder if all the parody t-shirts in this month's parachutists are giving monies to the original company. If they aren't they shoud have their asses beat! Snickers, Superman, Survivor, just to name a few. Comes right back to the original commentary; it's obvious to even the most illiterate that those T-shirts are parodical, and couldn't possibly be owned by, generated by, sold by, or promoting the products/manufacturers which they make fun of/refer to. Looking at the Tshirt in the photo posted by Bolas, it looks like a Dropzone.com T-shirt to me. Can't tell that it's a parody. But no one could mistake the Snickers/Survivor shirts for being the real thing. Also comes back to the second point, even if it wasn't apparent that the parody is related to Snickers et al, it's a corporate image vs a brother in a very small community. IMO, there is where the problem lies, and without Sangiro's blessing (which might be forthcoming, who knows..?) then it's inappropriate aside from any other considerations, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
allaxis.ca 0 #68 December 11, 2007 Quote Sorry, could you repeat that please?Being a member for years may I ask why the new username? The new username is a change from an older name, dzculture, which did not tie into my new online persona. Again. I'm not trying to create dissension amongst the masses here but what I'm sensing is that the image in question is simply too close to the original. Would it be considered a more 'correct' parody if it were more like this? We all know and understand the value of that parody. If you have never realized the fact that MANY of the threads are nothing more than one person venting, then that last image may very well be a more truthful 'PARODY'. Sincerely Mike 'X' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #69 December 11, 2007 The new username is a change from an older name, dzculture, which did not tie into my new web address. Quote 2 posts on that one, 2 on this...you POST WHORE! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #70 December 11, 2007 QuoteQuoteI wonder if all the parody t-shirts in this month's parachutists are giving monies to the original company. If they aren't they shoud have their asses beat! Snickers, Superman, Survivor, just to name a few. Comes right back to the original commentary; it's obvious to even the most illiterate that those T-shirts are parodical, and couldn't possibly be owned by, generated by, sold by, or promoting the products/manufacturers which they make fun of/refer to. Looking at the Tshirt in the photo posted by Bolas, it looks like a Dropzone.com T-shirt to me. Can't tell that it's a parody. But no one could mistake the Snickers/Survivor shirts for being the real thing. Also comes back to the second point, even if it wasn't apparent that the parody is related to Snickers et al, it's a corporate image vs a brother in a very small community. IMO, there is where the problem lies, and without Sangiro's blessing (which might be forthcoming, who knows..?) then it's inappropriate aside from any other considerations, IMO. I would imagine that the company that owns Jumper Sportswear (no longer a skydiver owned company), U.S. Logo, inc., had their lawyers do the homework required to be within the legal limits. Certian companies will come after you for any type of parody on their product. Harley Davidson is notorious for law suits against shirt printers as is Disney. Auto companies are another not to mess with. If one wishes to do a parody,they need to consider the four factors befor proceeding. http://www.publaw.com/parody.html As for someone mentioning that a design must be changed by 50% or more, not true. Having been in the business of embroidery and design for a few years, I've done a fair amount of research and have asked quite a few questions to others on what the limits are and it always comes down to purpose and character of use, nature of the copyrighted work. amount and substantiality of the portion used in the newly created work and effect upon the potential market of the copyrighted work. Given that it is highly unlikely that the company you wish to parodize will not grant permission you must be prepared to use the Fair Use defense and be able to show proof on each factor (all 4, not just one or two) that you are within the legal context to use the copyrighted work of another in the newly created work."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #71 December 11, 2007 QuoteIf the shirt is a parody (and the Supreme Court has been very liberal in what it considers parody), then the shirt is perfectly legal and in fact protected under the First Amendment. Indeed. Here in South Africa one of the world's largest breweries (SAB) took Laugh it off promotions to the Constitutional Court because of their parody of the Carling Black Label logo. SAB lost. QuoteIn a concurring judgment, Justice Albie Sachs, said: "The evidence indicates that everybody concerned with the t-shirts, whether producer or consumer, knew that they were intended to poke fun at the dominance exercised by brand names in our social and cultural life. Quote On the controversial t-shirt Laugh it Off had substituted the words "America's lusty, lively beer, Carling Black Label beer, enjoyed by men around the world" with "Black Labour White Guilt, Africa's lusty lively exploitation since 1652, no regard given worldwide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #72 December 11, 2007 Most parody shirts you can't tell them from the real thing from a distance. Unless the person tells you or you take more than a casual glance, you'll miss it. * The Warn a Brother Shirt with the WB logo. * The United Pot Smokers shirt with the UPS logo. * I had a college shirt parodying Absolut Vodka. It was brought up here before along with other shirt ideas: ClickyStupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #73 December 11, 2007 Quote Quote Sorry, could you repeat that please?Being a member for years may I ask why the new username? The new username is a change from an older name, dzculture, which did not tie into my new online persona. Again. I'm not trying to create dissension amongst the masses here but what I'm sensing is that the image in question is simply too close to the original. Would it be considered a more 'correct' parody if it were more like this? We all know and understand the value of that parody. If you have never realized the fact that MANY of the threads are nothing more than one person venting, then that last image may very well be a more truthful 'PARODY'. Sincerely Mike 'X' This says all I need to know about you. Defending yourself by insulting others is the lowest form of debate. You seemed like an educated man in your first post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #74 December 11, 2007 At least we are not thieves here and have some morals among our community of skydivers. .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #75 December 11, 2007 Would this be acceptable? Not a slam just a parody. No one should take a parody as a personal attack if the parody is done with no ill intent."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
