How many ways can you....

[grimmie 186]

There are quite a few very cool dead folks because the "Self appointed safety police" looked the other way on too many occasions.

[timmyfitz 0]

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I'm curious why you are scouring youtube for videos from this DZ? Not an exuse for Twin Cities but I'm sure if you tried you could find bad examples from any DZ

My guess would be

That's why I ask Chuck, so there wouldn't be a guess.

[timmyfitz 0]

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Chuck- your profile reads that you've been banned from a dz or two. Let's see that video :)

Will

Since you seem to be the self appointed safety police, I'd like to see that video also.

How could you say that Timmy? Clearly Chuck is concerned about protecting the tandem profession as a whole

I guess to me it's not as clear as it is to you. There are a couple of items in the original video that Chuck dislikes and complains about but to me are not a problem. There are also the other things he complains about that I totally agree with.

He just seems to be singling out this DZ. Just my opinion. Take it as such.

[DSE 5]

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There are quite a few very cool dead folks because the "Self appointed safety police" looked the other way on too many occasions.

+1.

[mcordell 2]

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Chuck- your profile reads that you've been banned from a dz or two. Let's see that video :)

Will

Since you seem to be the self appointed safety police, I'd like to see that video also.

How could you say that Timmy? Clearly Chuck is concerned about protecting the tandem profession as a whole

I guess to me it's not as clear as it is to you. There are a couple of items in the original video that Chuck dislikes and complains about but to me are not a problem. There are also the other things he complains about that I totally agree with.

He just seems to be singling out this DZ. Just my opinion. Take it as such.

I guess the issue though is that it doesn't really matter what is a problem to you and what is not. Nor does it really matter what is a problem for the OP. What matters is if the actions are a blatant violation of current regulations and if those actions being questioned go against the training and certifications of those involved.

I think the OP was simply pointing out that several of the actions represented in the numerous videos are a direct violation of what is allowed and endangered the unsuspecting passengers involved. Just because they may have thought it was fun, or just because it made a cool video, doesn't excuse the instructors and videographers from unnecessarily endangering the tandem passengers. I believe, without going back and looking, that this was verified by a tandem instructor examiner at one point or another. I'm just not sure why you felt it necessary to question the OPs motives. He didn't make them do any of what they did.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[chuckakers 426]

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Chuck- your profile reads that you've been banned from a dz or two. Let's see that video :)

Will

Since you seem to be the self appointed safety police, I'd like to see that video also.

What makes you guys think I was kicked off a DZ for something skydiving related? What makes you think I have been kicked off a DZ at all?

Maybe it was something in your profile.

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Home DZ:Any one I'm not banned from, heh, heh

Don't see any way of interpreting it other than you have been banned from a (some) dropzone. Don't be so defensive.

I'm curious why you are scouring youtube for videos from this DZ? Not an exuse for Twin Cities but I'm sure if you tried you could find bad examples from any DZ, even the one you call home, the one you haven't been banned from.

I'll start with the issue of being banned from a DZ. I'm not being defensive - I have nothing to be defensive about. As I said in my first reply - that you apparently didn't read very carefully - it's called humor in a profile.

As for scouring youtube for videos of this DZ, wrong again. I was actually searching for a different video and happened across the one I linked in my original post. It was only after seeing replies from others that I decided to see if there were others, and as we all know now, there were.

Self appointed safety police? Give it a rest. When I see blatant shit like that on these videos, why wouldn't I say something about it. Seems to me someone should - I just happen to be the one this time.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[iowa 0]

Hey Chuck, you are 100% right on this one.

Everything you pointed out is against all tandem rules.

I can't believe the manufacturers and Area Director/USPA haven't said or done something yet.

Wait, they had to consult thier lawyers first.

If Chuck ever got kicked off of a DZ it was like being kicked out of a titty bar. They were just annoyed and didn't want to see you (and your money) until the next day.

Ah, the good old days Chuck. Blues.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

[The_Don 0]

I showed these videos at my DZ this weekend.

General reaction ?






Pulled ratings.

Just saying what the people say..

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[spootch 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ghYvGLFjNk 2:33.....interesting.....

[davelepka 4]

As a TI, you know you might have made a mistake in planning your tandem when you have to wave off five times before releasing your drouge.

Either those guys got out at 4100ft, or that alti was reading in meters, in which case they're probably in Europe somewhere. Everyone knows that any sort of rules or regulations involving tandems don't apply in Europe or Hawaii.

[diablopilot 2]

The title said Skydive Lilo, which is near Madrid Spain.

Even thought they are in Europe, the do fall under the guidelines and sanctions of the USPA as they have chosen to be USPA Group members, and have even offered to be designated as a Training Center (TC) http://www.uspa.org/FindaDZ/GroupMemberListbyCountry/Spain/tabid/429/Default.aspx

Any TI's that might be USPA members as well, through being members have also agreed to abide by the USPA's rules.

And I'm picking up on the sarcasm of the last line of your post.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[davelepka 4]

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And I'm picking up on the sarcasm of the last line of your post

It has something to do with the relation of Europe and Hawaii to the magnetic poles, they're in a tandem regulation vortex were rules and regulations cannot get it, but video and pictures can get out.

There's a similar vortex in eastern Europe where any concept of conservative wingloading and planform selection cannot get it, but boxes and boxes full of Cobalt 120s can, and they hand them out to newbies like candy on Halloween.

[raskolnikovrod 0]

if i didn't know better, I'd think you gusy were jellous.
the people your ragging on have been doing this stuff successfully for years and probably have more jumps than all of you combined, with out any problems.

just leave'm alone and find someone else to talk aobut. besides havent you ever read that its really hard to judge distance from a video? how can you make judgments and really kno9w?

all of these guys are really current and experienced and safe, and are DZO's who have been doing this stuff since the 90s.

[AggieDave 6]

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all of these guys are really current and experienced and safe, and are DZO's who have been doing this stuff since the 90s.

Seriously?

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just leave'm alone and find someone else to talk aobut

Seriously?

The reason people are upset aren't because of the ability of the persons to do tricks with their students. The reason why people are upset is because they are doing tricks with their students that have been banned over 20 years ago due to them killing people.

I hope you remember your post in another couple of thousand of jumps and a rating or two. I'll be surprised if you have the same opinion.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mcordell 2]

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if i didn't know better, I'd think you gusy were jellous.
the people your ragging on have been doing this stuff successfully for years and probably have more jumps than all of you combined, with out any problems.

just leave'm alone and find someone else to talk aobut. besides havent you ever read that its really hard to judge distance from a video? how can you make judgments and really kno9w?

all of these guys are really current and experienced and safe, and are DZO's who have been doing this stuff since the 90s.

You might take a little more time to ensure that your posts are grammatically correct before you start flaming other people. Furthermore, it's not difficult to judge distance when the damn canopy is bumping against the tandem passenger. I'm pretty sure that the fact the tandem passenger grabs the top skin of the videographer's canopy provides a relatively good reference point to judge distance.

Sounds like maybe you jump here....

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[The_Don 0]

What's that saying..

Just because you got away with doing something stupid doesn't make it right.

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[grimmie 186]

Hmmm. I'm sure like me, there are many others here with some very dead friends because we "left them alone"...

[timmyfitz 0]

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if i didn't know better, I'd think you gusy were jellous.
the people your ragging on have been doing this stuff successfully for years and probably have more jumps than all of you combined, with out any problems.

just leave'm alone and find someone else to talk aobut. besides havent you ever read that its really hard to judge distance from a video? how can you make judgments and really kno9w?

all of these guys are really current and experienced and safe, and are DZO's who have been doing this stuff since the 90s.

You might take a little more time to ensure that your posts are grammatically correct before you start flaming other people. Furthermore, it's not difficult to judge distance when the damn canopy is bumping against the tandem passenger. I'm pretty sure that the fact the tandem passenger grabs the top skin of the videographer's canopy provides a relatively good reference point to judge distance.

Sounds like maybe you jump here....

I love when people point out spelling mistakes as a way to refute an argument. Always makes me laugh. You may want to re-read your own writings. I see a problem with sentence structure.

[mcordell 2]

Clearly I didn't point out spelling error to refute his argument. His argument on judging distance was adequately refuted in the majority of my post. I pointed out his spelling error because it is irritating.

My post was on topic, related to the thread, and specifically addressed his argument about judging distance on video. Only the first sentence of my post addressed his spelling errors. None of what you typed was related to the thread at hand however, much like this reply. Oh, and there is nothing wrong with my sentence structure either. I'm not aiming to write an academic paper, but rather engaging in casual conversation.

Let's get back to the topic of the thread with future posts though.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[davelepka 4]

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havent you ever read that its really hard to judge distance from a video? how can you make judgments and really kno9w?

Try making 4000 video jumps. You develop a pretty good eye for what real life will look like on video, and what video looked like in real life.

But really, when the leading edge fo your canopy is in the hands of a student, what about that are you having trouble judging? How much of the canopy is in their hands?

The truth is that any amount of canopy is too much, and anything within 15 or 20ft. of a tandem canopy is too close.

Were you aware that the manufacturers of tandem equipment have banned any type of tandem crew? If so, why would you advocate these 'professionals' breaking the rules? What other rules would you be willing to excuse them from? How would you feel if they were breaking rules with your family member as a passenger?

Maybe you were not aware that this was against the rules, if that was the case, how do you feel about the situation now that you do know?

I can see that you jump at Twin Cities, are you aware that one dead tandem student can shut down the DZ? Well, it's actually the lawyer for that student's familty that will drain the assets of the DZ with a lawsuit, but the end result is no more DZ. Would still support the rule breakers if they cause the DZ to go out of business?

With video proof of their negligence, and the testimony of an 'expert witness' who can confirm that this behavoir is in violation of the tandem mfg regulations, the waiver won't last one day in court. The DZ could easily be looking at a judgment against them in excess of $1,000,000.

Now that you are aware of the risk these jumpers are introducing to your home DZ, does your opinion change any?

[skydiver604 0]

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havent you ever read that its really hard to judge distance from a video? how can you make judgments and really kno9w?

Try making 4000 video jumps. You develop a pretty good eye for what real life will look like on video, and what video looked like in real life.

But really, when the leading edge fo your canopy is in the hands of a student, what about that are you having trouble judging? How much of the canopy is in their hands?

The truth is that any amount of canopy is too much, and anything within 15 or 20ft. of a tandem canopy is too close.

Were you aware that the manufacturers of tandem equipment have banned any type of tandem crew? If so, why would you advocate these 'professionals' breaking the rules? What other rules would you be willing to excuse them from? How would you feel if they were breaking rules with your family member as a passenger?

Maybe you were not aware that this was against the rules, if that was the case, how do you feel about the situation now that you do know?

I can see that you jump at Twin Cities, are you aware that one dead tandem student can shut down the DZ? Well, it's actually the lawyer for that student's familty that will drain the assets of the DZ with a lawsuit, but the end result is no more DZ. Would still support the rule breakers if they cause the DZ to go out of business?

With video proof of their negligence, and the testimony of an 'expert witness' who can confirm that this behavoir is in violation of the tandem mfg regulations, the waiver won't last one day in court. The DZ could easily be looking at a judgment against them in excess of $1,000,000.

Now that you are aware of the risk these jumpers are introducing to your home DZ, does your opinion change any?

+10

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

[raskolnikovrod 0]

You may have given me some things to think about, but I still say that you can't judge unless your there.

I think the DZO's are both do tandems and may even teach other jumpers how to do tandemns. These guys and staff have thousands of safe jumps. If they are experienced and safe, and one of them is also a pilot who has a boat load of hours, then the simple fact that there are no violations or incidents should be enough evidence of STC's safety for me.

I still say you don't know if you aren't here.
But I'll think about it, if it makes you feel better.

And for the spelling errrors, My spell checker button is broken, and this isn't about spelling. It's about safe jumping.

If my family member came to do a tandem I would ask manifest if I could choose the most experienced tandem master and video guy who I know is safe.

[yoink 321]

Who do you think has more tandems? The DZO's, or the designers & manufacturers of the tandem systems?

One of these says these types of stunts are a bad idea; if jump numbers and experience are what you're going on, you're backing the wrong horse.

Do you think the tandem briefing includes a section on how much more dangerous doing these types of maneuvres are, rather than a 'typical' tandem? Do you think they give the student an informed choice? Hell, with 4 years in the sport and 350 skydives you trust those instructors and think what they're doing this is fine... what chance do you think a student has of understanding the risks and consquences involved?

Can it be done? Obviously.

That's not the same as 'should it be done'...

[c10edges 0]

Maybe you simply can not comprehend the fact that manufacture regulations are set because certain acts can and have killed "experienced and safe" tandem masters and their cargo. I understand that these are your friends. I understand that you want to speak up for them. However, you should speak to them because they will not be working in the industry for long if they continue these stunts.

[pilotdave 0]

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I still say you don't know if you aren't here.

Nobody likes hearing their DZ get bashed. But the wonderful thing about video is that nobody has to be there to "know." Unless they really do those stunts on the ground in front of a green screen... then we'd have to be there to know what they're doing is ok. But I'm going to assume the videos are real. There's nothing more to know. It's nice to know that those are very exprienced TIs or maybe even I/Es. That's better than new instructors. But it doesn't make it ok. There's nothing somebody could learn by actually going to the DZ and meeting those people that would make it ok.

Honestly, that's stuff they could easily lose ratings over. Why do people do that stuff on camera? I wouldn't have any sympathy for them...

Dave