FrogNog 1 #26 March 7, 2006 QuoteIn the last 2 years I have had 7 canopies (3 mains 4 reserves) shipped to me with the connector links removed. Are you buying these canopies under contract? If so, did the contract specify that the line groups will be maintained with something like links? -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #27 March 7, 2006 Whenever a customer asks me to inspect his main as well, I tell him up front that it take me a minimum of an extra half hour and I will charge at least $30 more. For example: a young jumper just bought a slightly used rig and asked me to inspect and repack the reserve. No flaws found on the reserve. I inspected 2/3 of the main before quitting time yesterday. So far no flaws found on the main. He was cool with paying an extra $30 to have his "new" main inspected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #28 March 7, 2006 Quote He was cool with paying an extra $30 to have his "new" main inspected. *** A new jumper can't put a price on 'Peace of Mind' ...one less think to worry about! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #29 March 7, 2006 I had a guy who brought me his 'new' (used) rig that he had just gotten a helluva deal on! He handed me a list of what he wanted done, which meant, to go completely through it and make any and all, necessary repairs and etc. I worked about 3-(8-hour)days on that rig. I returned his rig to him at the DZ that week-end, along with my bill. He started to tell me that I had done 'un-authorised' work on his rig and just wanted to pay for the Inspection and re-pack. I reached in my pocket and handed him his 'list', written in his own hand. His list, matched my bill. He paid-up. I also, refused to work on his rig, 120 days later. I guess, no matter how hard you try to be fair and forthright with some folks, it just don't work. Chuck Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 235 #30 March 7, 2006 QuoteBy the way, that's a pretty strong accusation you made! Don't worry, I got that your post was more of a parable about shortsighted equipment owners than about how you snuck one over on some sucker. I figured you wouldn't just replace someone's leg straps and then charge a million bucks."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #31 March 7, 2006 QuoteYou are correct in stating that the current generation of skydivers has no clues about gear. Theres just nothing quite like a nice juicy sweeping generalization, is there? Someday I may be able to speak for everyone too, but I'm not there yet When I sold a main last year I attached all the lines in order to my own home made card to keep them all properly ordered. Must have been a fluke... __ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #32 March 7, 2006 werd... When I sold my last canopy I specifically asked my rigger to help me remove it from the risers and put it on a card so I wouldn't hose my buyer and make him waste time dicking with line continuity. Not every "newbie" is a total flake when it comes to gear.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #33 March 7, 2006 I've probably given-away, more work than I should've charged for. Especially, 'big' jobs where several patches were involved, replacing Velcro, repairing broken stitches in seams, etc. etc. I'd list on the bill exactly what and what not they were charged with and still, get complaints on the bill. I learned, after a couple times of that, keep charging a fair price but charge for all the work I did. My prices are under the 'National Average', too. You deal with the public long enough, you run across folks like that. That's no parable, that's the damned truth. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #34 March 8, 2006 masterrig, Just a suggestion, have you every thought of contacting the jumper and giving him/her an estimate? For example, once you've figured out everything, calling/contacting the jumper back and saying, "You asked me to do A - L on your rig. Do you realize this will cost you $X?" They may not realize this or it will at least prepare them for (what they call in the Mortgage Industry) "payment shock". They may comeback and say, "Thanks for letting me know. On second thought, please only do A - C on my rig." I'm not saying you didn't, but it didn't seem readily apparant to me. I'm not trying to be cheap, but if expectations on either end are not in line, than at least someone will be pissed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #35 March 8, 2006 As I go through the Inspection process and I find something not on the 'list' and I feel it needs attention, I call the owner of the rig and discuss it with him/her. Some of the things I've mentioned along the way, are things I've experienced in the past and have learned ways to handle them, should those things arise again. The whole thing is a 'learning curve'.I would have to say, 99.44% percent of the people I deal with are 'aware' and fairly knowledgable in regard to their gear. If not, they are willing to learn. There is, a very small percentage who are just, for a lack of a better word... jerks. I am only referring to my little area that I work in. I get all kinds. I call it 'dealing with the public'. By the way, I do, appreciate your suggestion. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #36 March 8, 2006 Colin in Empuriabrava does most of the maintenance on my rigs. I ask him to do a couple of things, and he usually does a couple more. Then he explains me what he did and I learn A LOT about gear in general, and my gear in particular.And his prices are cheap IMO for what I get so I'm happy with it.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #37 March 8, 2006 Cool. We're all learning constantly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #38 March 8, 2006 Ever get an airplane annual ed? If I got called about every little item.... You take it in and get the work done you asked for...if the bill is to high, take your business elsewhere next time. If you are having work done on your rig, ask questions...you should have a pretty good idea of the bill prior to getting the work done. The rigger has better things to do that make a dozen calls a day to ask permission to do what was ask for anyway. As far as I'm concerned, for the time and commitment and expense it takes to become a rigger, I have no complaints when the bill comes...as long as the work is right. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #39 March 8, 2006 That's a heckuva deal! I have folks like you and I wish they were all like you! Easy to deal with. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #40 March 8, 2006 QuoteCool. We're all learning constantly. ________________________________ That's what it's all about! That 'hokey-pokey' stuff is an urban legend! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DeNReN 0 #41 March 8, 2006 Its quite interesting how a simple thread about common curtesy and respect can turn into such a informative and intresting one I have enjoyed reading this thread and agree with the basic principles most riggers have gripped about...but it also raises a few questions....(almost worthy of another thread) I will assume that all riggers are doing a "proper" R&I of the reserve and container....so I personally would like to know how some justify charging double for adding the main to the R&I proceedure...it adds approx. 1/2 hour to the time consuming reserve/container R&I....yes there should be a extra charge for it. but to double the bill? Thats a tad excessive. Setting a basic pricing guidline up front would seem to be the best way to approach this...reserve/container R&I $XX.....reserve/container/main R&I $XXX Additional work required during the inspection process will be estimated and the customer contacted before repairs are performed. It is really that simple.....well for the most part As a Master mechanic it is my job to look at something a tad more complicated then a rig and give a "proper" diagnoses and estimate for repairs required...not easy to do...(nore is it in rigging) but I can promise you that failure to stick with my diagnoses and estimate create extreem havoc and grief. I cannot double my customers bill without forewarning of possible problems and a revised estimate before the work is done. As far as a stupidity charge goes.....been there done that ....will do it again...and understand the gripes mentioned in this thread...but a stupidity charge can be done without gouging....may I suggest using time....they waste your time...you waste their time? I have had the pleasure of befriending a rigger this past year.....I had the oppertunity to help him out with his vehicle repairs(as I do all skydivers) and teach him some of the ins and outs relating to his vehicle...he in turn has been very helpfull to me(as he is with people who have not done him any favors) and has walked me through my latest(and 1st reserve/container R&I((not a beer offence))...I believe one of the reasons we get along is that we both want to learn from the other and are willing to share our knowlage to someone willing and wanting to learn.(I have to add that he works for food and scotch) One final question.....would YOU (all riggers) perfer to have customers who are intrested in their gear and intrested in learning about it from YOU? I am sorry for the rambling way I presented this post..so many things to say.....so little talent to type it. peace Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #42 March 8, 2006 I will assume that all riggers are doing a "proper" R&I of the reserve and container....so I personally would like to know how some justify charging double for adding the main to the R&I proceedure...it adds approx. 1/2 hour to the time consuming reserve/container R&I....yes there should be a extra charge for it. but to double the bill? Thats a tad excessive. ____________________________________ The way I see it is this. The main and reserve are both 'life saving devices'. The main, being used more often is more susceptible to damage and wear. Our job as riggers is, to 'prove airworthiness' of the entire system. I have seen mains that have gone for months of use and not looked at. Not even by the owner. I've seen them with one or two ribs torn from leading to trailing edge. The inspection process is the same for a main as it is for a reserve. So, why, should we not charge the same for the inspection of a main as we would charge for a reserve? A rigger's time is worth 'something' and whether it's called a main or a reserve it's still, a life saving device and they both deserve the same attention and time to assure airworthiness. Equal time... equal pay. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianM 1 #43 March 8, 2006 QuoteI have to add that he works for food and scotch Let's see... food, beer, scotch, and cheap truck repairs & maintenance, in exchange for rigging services and help with your house renos. I think I got the better end of the deal! Quotewould YOU (all riggers) perfer to have customers who are intrested in their gear and intrested in learning about it from YOU? Yep. People who are interested in their gear usually do (or will learn to) both treat it better, as well as get stuff fixed before it becomes a much bigger repair. Makes my job easier..."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DeNReN 0 #44 March 8, 2006 the inspection process of the main is no where near as time consuming as the R&I of the reserve/container. How much more time do you spend inspecting the container and packing the reserve compared to the actual reserve inspection? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #45 March 8, 2006 Not trying to be a dickhead dude, but go get your ticket and spend a few years using it and putting up with people who think your time and work are worth 5 bucks and or nothing (free) and spend your skydiving days in the loft seeing everyone else having fun while you work your ass off for not much pay and then to top it off when your pack job works and saves someone they don't thank you with a bottle anymore nowdays, then you might start to understand what were saying. You think I should hook up everyones 3-rings for free? Or give out advice all day I had to pay to learn. I used to, but like I posted from now on it 25 bucks a side, because most people who ask are lazy or stupid, students still get free training till they get an A then if they still don't get it by then it's 25 bucks a side! It's steep for a reason, I have better things to do like jumping then fixing everyones little bullshit they could do them selfs if the understood their gear. If you show up at a boogie and want me to repack your reserve that's 130.00 cash. Because I see it as your the dumbass who planned to go to a boogie for weeks ahead of time but didn't bother to get in date before showing up and I too planned to go to the same boogie weeks ahead of time, to SKYDIVE and not work in the loft. If you don't agree thats ok, when you have your ticket you can be that guy working the loft durring the boogie for normal rates and doing shit for free all the time to be a nice guy, but I got bills to pay like everyone else in the world. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #46 March 8, 2006 In the same vein, some people think that all riggers bring their tools to the DZ. Joe Skydiver: Hey rigger! Can you look at or do ABC... XYZ? Rigger: Yeah, but my tools are at home. I can do that work for you on Monday. Joe Skydiver: What?!?! What kind of rigger doesn't bring his tools to the dropzone?!?! Rigger: A rigger that wants to Skydive when he comes to the DZ."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #47 March 8, 2006 guys, you seem to take jumper behavior a bit too personally. If you don't like it, get out, or change the equation in your favor. Seems silly to get angry about it. Would rather jump at a boogie than do a reserve repack. Just say no to the request. The jumper may or may not have a good reason for asking at the last hour, but seems irrelevent. You're there to work, or you're there to play. Like your cellphone, your decision to answer. Or to charge a premium. If a guy asks for clarification of a bill afterwards, it's just that. I've only had 3 reserve repacks- I hardly know what the normal practices are. If he instead accuses you of ripping him off, well that's a different matter altogether. That'd piss me off too. And if someone asks you a 'stupid' question about their 3 ring - answer, refer to some qualified, something. First time I had a step through it confused me - I knew something was wrong, but couldn't figure out how to make it right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #48 March 8, 2006 I was never comparing inspecting the main to inspecting the reserve & container. I'm comparing MAIN - RESERVE... parachutes only. They take about the same time so, I charge the same. I take the time necessary to do a complete inspection. How much time I spend is up to me. I don't charge by the hour. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but, I didn't know that rigging was a timed event. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #49 March 8, 2006 You make some really good points. We work hard for our tickets and are 'professionals'. Yet, there's some folks out there who de-mean what we do. I think, it's arrogance on their part. Those folks don't really have a true view of what exactly it is, we do. Those are the same folks who pack their main in 5-minutes and can't understand why, it takes a rigger, much longer to inspect & re-pack their reserve. Like you, I've done the 'freebie' main hook-ups, make main closing loops, help someone pack their new Sabre and etc. and not charge for it. It's really strange, to me, how folks will pay big bucks to have their Hummer worked on but, when it comes to their life saving equipment, we charge too much. Don't get me wrong. I truly love the work. It's just that 'few' members of the skydiving population we have to put-up with. Don't get ne wrong, I'm sure, this type of thing happens to other professionals in this world. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #50 March 8, 2006 Regarding "freebies".... If the rigger/packer/whoever wants to do that, that's cool by me. I've asked people to give me packing tips, and I paid them for their time. The 30 minutes I spent with them getting tips was time that they WEREN'T making money packing.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
airtwardo 7 #38 March 8, 2006 Ever get an airplane annual ed? If I got called about every little item.... You take it in and get the work done you asked for...if the bill is to high, take your business elsewhere next time. If you are having work done on your rig, ask questions...you should have a pretty good idea of the bill prior to getting the work done. The rigger has better things to do that make a dozen calls a day to ask permission to do what was ask for anyway. As far as I'm concerned, for the time and commitment and expense it takes to become a rigger, I have no complaints when the bill comes...as long as the work is right. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #39 March 8, 2006 That's a heckuva deal! I have folks like you and I wish they were all like you! Easy to deal with. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #40 March 8, 2006 QuoteCool. We're all learning constantly. ________________________________ That's what it's all about! That 'hokey-pokey' stuff is an urban legend! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #41 March 8, 2006 Its quite interesting how a simple thread about common curtesy and respect can turn into such a informative and intresting one I have enjoyed reading this thread and agree with the basic principles most riggers have gripped about...but it also raises a few questions....(almost worthy of another thread) I will assume that all riggers are doing a "proper" R&I of the reserve and container....so I personally would like to know how some justify charging double for adding the main to the R&I proceedure...it adds approx. 1/2 hour to the time consuming reserve/container R&I....yes there should be a extra charge for it. but to double the bill? Thats a tad excessive. Setting a basic pricing guidline up front would seem to be the best way to approach this...reserve/container R&I $XX.....reserve/container/main R&I $XXX Additional work required during the inspection process will be estimated and the customer contacted before repairs are performed. It is really that simple.....well for the most part As a Master mechanic it is my job to look at something a tad more complicated then a rig and give a "proper" diagnoses and estimate for repairs required...not easy to do...(nore is it in rigging) but I can promise you that failure to stick with my diagnoses and estimate create extreem havoc and grief. I cannot double my customers bill without forewarning of possible problems and a revised estimate before the work is done. As far as a stupidity charge goes.....been there done that ....will do it again...and understand the gripes mentioned in this thread...but a stupidity charge can be done without gouging....may I suggest using time....they waste your time...you waste their time? I have had the pleasure of befriending a rigger this past year.....I had the oppertunity to help him out with his vehicle repairs(as I do all skydivers) and teach him some of the ins and outs relating to his vehicle...he in turn has been very helpfull to me(as he is with people who have not done him any favors) and has walked me through my latest(and 1st reserve/container R&I((not a beer offence))...I believe one of the reasons we get along is that we both want to learn from the other and are willing to share our knowlage to someone willing and wanting to learn.(I have to add that he works for food and scotch) One final question.....would YOU (all riggers) perfer to have customers who are intrested in their gear and intrested in learning about it from YOU? I am sorry for the rambling way I presented this post..so many things to say.....so little talent to type it. peace Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #42 March 8, 2006 I will assume that all riggers are doing a "proper" R&I of the reserve and container....so I personally would like to know how some justify charging double for adding the main to the R&I proceedure...it adds approx. 1/2 hour to the time consuming reserve/container R&I....yes there should be a extra charge for it. but to double the bill? Thats a tad excessive. ____________________________________ The way I see it is this. The main and reserve are both 'life saving devices'. The main, being used more often is more susceptible to damage and wear. Our job as riggers is, to 'prove airworthiness' of the entire system. I have seen mains that have gone for months of use and not looked at. Not even by the owner. I've seen them with one or two ribs torn from leading to trailing edge. The inspection process is the same for a main as it is for a reserve. So, why, should we not charge the same for the inspection of a main as we would charge for a reserve? A rigger's time is worth 'something' and whether it's called a main or a reserve it's still, a life saving device and they both deserve the same attention and time to assure airworthiness. Equal time... equal pay. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #43 March 8, 2006 QuoteI have to add that he works for food and scotch Let's see... food, beer, scotch, and cheap truck repairs & maintenance, in exchange for rigging services and help with your house renos. I think I got the better end of the deal! Quotewould YOU (all riggers) perfer to have customers who are intrested in their gear and intrested in learning about it from YOU? Yep. People who are interested in their gear usually do (or will learn to) both treat it better, as well as get stuff fixed before it becomes a much bigger repair. Makes my job easier..."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #44 March 8, 2006 the inspection process of the main is no where near as time consuming as the R&I of the reserve/container. How much more time do you spend inspecting the container and packing the reserve compared to the actual reserve inspection? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #45 March 8, 2006 Not trying to be a dickhead dude, but go get your ticket and spend a few years using it and putting up with people who think your time and work are worth 5 bucks and or nothing (free) and spend your skydiving days in the loft seeing everyone else having fun while you work your ass off for not much pay and then to top it off when your pack job works and saves someone they don't thank you with a bottle anymore nowdays, then you might start to understand what were saying. You think I should hook up everyones 3-rings for free? Or give out advice all day I had to pay to learn. I used to, but like I posted from now on it 25 bucks a side, because most people who ask are lazy or stupid, students still get free training till they get an A then if they still don't get it by then it's 25 bucks a side! It's steep for a reason, I have better things to do like jumping then fixing everyones little bullshit they could do them selfs if the understood their gear. If you show up at a boogie and want me to repack your reserve that's 130.00 cash. Because I see it as your the dumbass who planned to go to a boogie for weeks ahead of time but didn't bother to get in date before showing up and I too planned to go to the same boogie weeks ahead of time, to SKYDIVE and not work in the loft. If you don't agree thats ok, when you have your ticket you can be that guy working the loft durring the boogie for normal rates and doing shit for free all the time to be a nice guy, but I got bills to pay like everyone else in the world. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #46 March 8, 2006 In the same vein, some people think that all riggers bring their tools to the DZ. Joe Skydiver: Hey rigger! Can you look at or do ABC... XYZ? Rigger: Yeah, but my tools are at home. I can do that work for you on Monday. Joe Skydiver: What?!?! What kind of rigger doesn't bring his tools to the dropzone?!?! Rigger: A rigger that wants to Skydive when he comes to the DZ."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #47 March 8, 2006 guys, you seem to take jumper behavior a bit too personally. If you don't like it, get out, or change the equation in your favor. Seems silly to get angry about it. Would rather jump at a boogie than do a reserve repack. Just say no to the request. The jumper may or may not have a good reason for asking at the last hour, but seems irrelevent. You're there to work, or you're there to play. Like your cellphone, your decision to answer. Or to charge a premium. If a guy asks for clarification of a bill afterwards, it's just that. I've only had 3 reserve repacks- I hardly know what the normal practices are. If he instead accuses you of ripping him off, well that's a different matter altogether. That'd piss me off too. And if someone asks you a 'stupid' question about their 3 ring - answer, refer to some qualified, something. First time I had a step through it confused me - I knew something was wrong, but couldn't figure out how to make it right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #48 March 8, 2006 I was never comparing inspecting the main to inspecting the reserve & container. I'm comparing MAIN - RESERVE... parachutes only. They take about the same time so, I charge the same. I take the time necessary to do a complete inspection. How much time I spend is up to me. I don't charge by the hour. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but, I didn't know that rigging was a timed event. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #49 March 8, 2006 You make some really good points. We work hard for our tickets and are 'professionals'. Yet, there's some folks out there who de-mean what we do. I think, it's arrogance on their part. Those folks don't really have a true view of what exactly it is, we do. Those are the same folks who pack their main in 5-minutes and can't understand why, it takes a rigger, much longer to inspect & re-pack their reserve. Like you, I've done the 'freebie' main hook-ups, make main closing loops, help someone pack their new Sabre and etc. and not charge for it. It's really strange, to me, how folks will pay big bucks to have their Hummer worked on but, when it comes to their life saving equipment, we charge too much. Don't get me wrong. I truly love the work. It's just that 'few' members of the skydiving population we have to put-up with. Don't get ne wrong, I'm sure, this type of thing happens to other professionals in this world. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #50 March 8, 2006 Regarding "freebies".... If the rigger/packer/whoever wants to do that, that's cool by me. I've asked people to give me packing tips, and I paid them for their time. The 30 minutes I spent with them getting tips was time that they WEREN'T making money packing.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
