Pets: Rescue or Store/Breeder Purchase?

[livendive 8]

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Breeder if you want a specific breed of dog with a certain temperament, want to show, or you are inexperienced and want someone you can call at 3 am with questions, and want a dog guaranteed free of certain health problems.

A certain temperment? What kind of temperment can someone guarantee when you get a puppy from them?

Getting from a breeder if you want to show, I can agree with.

What certain types of health problems can breeders guarantee against?

While breeders will indeed often guarantee against certain health problems, the biggest thing they do is *breed* against those health problems. For example, my dog's parents were both heart, thyroid, and hip certified, i.e. rather expensive testing was done to ensure they were good candidates to improve the boxer bloodline. Similarly, with their Am.Ch's. in hand (or paw), conformance with the boxer standard, including temperment, was likely. Note I said likely, not guaranteed. Despite good to great lineage, not all, or even most, puppies will conform at levels sufficient to justify showing, nor are all good candidates for breeding. Most litters will produce more pet-quality puppies than show-quality, and those puppies need homes too. Minka (my girl) is just such a dog. For pet purposes, she's a great boxer, but she wouldn't dominate a show ring, and breeding her wouldn't necessarily improve the breed (which should be the goal of breeding). For these reasons, I got a slightly reduced price on her and spayed her at 6 months before getting her papers. I got a conforming dog from healthy parents (and grand, great, great-great, and great-great-great grandparents) that was produced in the pursuit of an improved breed. The breeders got a good home for a puppy who wasn't going to win Westminster, and got a few bucks so they can continue their efforts.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[PLFXpert 0]

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But having the presumption to judge someone based on where and why they get there pets? what's the point?

Frankly it interests me where & why people do various things--particularly involving animals, children, elderly and probably many other things.

The where and why is important w/r/t sociology, psychology, and anyone with an interest in the subject for whatever other reason--be it advertising animal-related services, products, marketing those things and/or conceptualizing them.

A lot of people get paid a lot of money to pay attention to where & why people do things. The market for pets and pet products is no exception.

As far as judgement goes, there are far pettier things to judge a person for. And I think where & why and even how a person acts w/r/t animals is a pretty good indicator of certain personality & behavioral traits.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Nightingale 0]

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My entire family has papillons and has since I was a little girl. And each went to a "reputable breeder" and were assured this and that. And as far as tempermant goes all is as promised. But, not a single one yet has not developed an enlarged heart, MR or some other heart problem. A couple also slowly lost their ability to see well. These are breed-specific problems.

The loss of vision is probably PRA (progressive retinal atrophy) and is genetic. My dog's parents had DNA testing and are not carriers of this gene. Ditto for luxating patellas that can result in expensive surgery and pain for the dog. I haven't heard of heart disease being breed-specific for paps. Where did you hear that?

[Nightingale 0]

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A certain temperment? What kind of temperment can someone guarantee when you get a puppy from them?

Different dogs are bred to do different things. For example, huskies love to run. Collies are working dogs. Papillons are companion dogs. The dogs have been bred for centuries to have an inborn drive to do certain things (ever seen an aussie shepherd trying to herd a group of small children? They were bred to herd sheep.). Those kinds of instincts tend to be passed from parents to puppy. Many puppy mills breed without regards to temperament, so you get a breed where the breed standard is "friendly and outgoing" and a puppy mill or pound pup that is naturally very shy. Another example is that pound or puppy mill Boston Terriers tend to be extremely hyper, whereas well bred ones tend to be energetic and love to play, but not extraordinarily hyperactive. A reputable breeder will also make sure that her puppies aren't separated from their mothers and littermates too early and will be properly socialized. Dogs who are separated too early can have all kinds of socialization and anxiety issues.

If you let a breeder know you are looking for a specific temperament, and the breeder guarantees that, and the dog does not develop that temperament, oftentimes the breeder will give you a refund and rehome the dog to someone who wants a pet of that temperament. It is important that the personality of the dog suits it's home life.

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What certain types of health problems can breeders guarantee against?

My dog's breeder guaranteed against PRA (a type of progressive genetic blindness that is common in papillons) and luxating patellas (knee problem that causes lameness), because the breeder was responsible and DNA tested all her breeding and show animals for these diseases. When you pay a reputable breeder for a puppy, you're helping to pay for genetic testing that keeps the breed healthy.

[Conundrum 1]

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Different dogs are bred to do different things. For example, huskies love to run. Collies are working dogs. Papillons are companion dogs. The dogs have been bred for centuries to have an inborn drive to do certain things (ever seen an aussie shepherd trying to herd a group of small children? They were bred to herd sheep.). Those kinds of instincts tend to be passed from parents to puppy. Many puppy mills breed without regards to temperament, so you get a breed where the breed standard is "friendly and outgoing" and a puppy mill or pound pup that is naturally very shy. Another example is that pound or puppy mill Boston Terriers tend to be extremely hyper, whereas well bred ones tend to be energetic and love to play, but not extraordinarily hyperactive. A reputable breeder will also make sure that her puppies aren't separated from their mothers and littermates too early and will be properly socialized. Dogs who are separated too early can have all kinds of socialization and anxiety issues.

Huh, that's interesting.

I saved a great dog from a rescue, with a fantastic temperment, and I saved myself at least a thousand dollars. I'm probably just lucky, though.

[Nightingale 0]

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Huh, that's interesting.

I saved a great dog from a rescue, with a fantastic temperment, and I saved myself at least a thousand dollars. I'm probably just lucky, though.

Well, temperament is a bit of a roll of the dice with a rescue or shelter dog, especially if it's a young mixed breed. For example, if you have a mixed breed Mastiff/Aussie Shepherd, are you going to get something a little bigger than a shepherd with the laid back Saint attitude, or are you going to end up with a dog almost the size of a Saint, with all the energy and herding instincts of the shepherd?

As for saving yourself a thousand dollars, maybe not. Your dog may have some genetic health problems that a breeder would have been able to eliminate.

[livendive 8]

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I saved a great dog from a rescue, with a fantastic temperment, and I saved myself at least a thousand dollars. I'm probably just lucky, though.

And I got a great dog from a reputable breeder, with a fantastic temperment, and donated about a thousand dollars toward the expenses they incur by breeding ethically. Sounds like we both got lucky.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[peregrinerose 0]

I disagree that temperment is a roll of the dice with rescues. It's not like they just randomly hand you a dog and say 'have fun'. Most breed specific rescues keep the animals in foster homes, so the personality and temperament is already extremely well known and tested, and they are great about giving this information to adoptees. My grey was from a foster home with other dogs, cats, rabbits, and kids, and I knew his nature before I ever met him. He's exactly as was described to us.

It's actually harder to know what a newborn puppy will develop into with no information like that. Even our pup from the humane league was 4 months old and extensively temperament tested before we got her. They wouldn't let us bring her home until they tested her with a cat there as well as our other dog.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Conundrum 1]

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I saved a great dog from a rescue, with a fantastic temperment, and I saved myself at least a thousand dollars. I'm probably just lucky, though.

And I got a great dog from a reputable breeder, with a fantastic temperment, and donated about a thousand dollars toward the expenses they incur by breeding ethically. Sounds like we both got lucky.

Blues,
Dave

Is there a reason you would rather buy from a breeder than rescue a dog that might otherwise not find a home?

[chykynlyps 0]

rescue....but im a reptile guy.

Bear Down Chicago Bears!
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" Thomas Jefferson

[DangerRoo 0]

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I saved a great dog from a rescue, with a fantastic temperment, and I saved myself at least a thousand dollars. I'm probably just lucky, though.

And I got a great dog from a reputable breeder, with a fantastic temperment, and donated about a thousand dollars toward the expenses they incur by breeding ethically. Sounds like we both got lucky.

Blues,
Dave

...I'm sorry all I could focus on was.."Sounds like we both got lucky."

(I.C.D#2 VP)
""I'm good with my purple penis straw" ~sky mama

[Nightingale 0]

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Is there a reason you would rather buy from a breeder than rescue a dog that might otherwise not find a home?

What I think you're missing is that getting a dog from a breeder is not depriving a rescue of a home. Many people would not get an animal at all if they didn't get it from a breeder, and other homes, like mine, are a mix of rescues and breeder animals. It's not a black and white, one or the other thing.

[rehmwa 2]

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Is there a reason you would rather buy from a breeder than rescue a dog that might otherwise not find a home?

Without the right breeding, the cat (or small rat like dog) will taste stringy and require an excess of seasoning before being used in stews and the like.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Conundrum 1]

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Is there a reason you would rather buy from a breeder than rescue a dog that might otherwise not find a home?

Without the right breeding, the cat (or small rat like dog) will taste stringy and require an excess of seasoning before being used in stews and the like.

I hate when that happens.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I haven't heard of heart disease being breed-specific for paps. Where did you hear that?

First heard it from the vet when I was younger. Then read about it and other breed-specific health problems for paps and many other breeds.

Quickest to cite, of course, is Wiki:

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Papillons may also be affected by the following conditions:

Von Willebrand's disease
Luxating patella
Mitral valve disease
Progressive retinal atrophy
Reverse sneezing

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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When you pay a reputable breeder for a puppy, you're helping to pay for genetic testing that keeps the breed healthy.

I agree. One problem, however, is "reputable" breeders are not the more common type. And Joe Average isn't aware of the difference.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Nightingale 0]

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When you pay a reputable breeder for a puppy, you're helping to pay for genetic testing that keeps the breed healthy.

I agree. One problem, however, is "reputable" breeders are not the more common type. And Joe Average isn't aware of the difference.

This is why people need to do research and educate themselves before getting a pet. Information about what makes a good breeder is all over the internet.

[livendive 8]

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Is there a reason you would rather buy from a breeder than rescue a dog that might otherwise not find a home?

Not really, or at least not in the grand scheme of things. If two dogs exist, one at a reputable breeder and one at a local rescue, they both need good homes equally. One will just cost more, at least up-front. "Pet quality" dogs (i.e. not show or breed-worthy) are part of every litter born. Backyard breeders produce almost exclusively pet quality dogs (and lower), whereas ethical breeders produce some smaller percentage of them. I'm guessing maybe 25-50 percent of each litter whelped at a reputable breeder is show or breed worthy, but that's a total WAG. My point is that the rest need good homes just as much as rescues. They are generally of better health and temperment, and they come with a price tag as a result (with the proceeds going to support ethical breeding), but that's about the end of the differences. Breed-specific rescue organizations and ethical breeders have several good things in common, especially the fact that they generally place a priority on getting their dogs to good homes and they will keep them until such homes are found. Whether one pays to support an ethical breeder or chooses to rescue a dog with a checkered or downright abusive past is entirely personal. As long as you're not encouraging inhumane treatment or unethical breeding, all I really care about is whether you give your dog a good home. My guess is that you do.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[PLFXpert 0]

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Well, temperament is a bit of a roll of the dice with a rescue or shelter dog, especially if it's a young mixed breed.

I agree to a small extent, but again shelters often know the temperament of dogs and list such on their cards. The more valid point you make is "young". Still, in most cases the breeds mixed are known and one can still decide if either is right for them--and since they're young (like any young dog from anywhere) they'll require proper training by the parent. Training is a big part of why people end up with temperament issues.

Even when you believe you know the temperament ahead of time, you still need to train a puppy or young dog to your likes and dislikes. Period.

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Your dog may have some genetic health problems that a breeder would have been able to eliminate.

Genetic health problems are greatly reduced by mixed-breeding and so on. But that aside, I'm familiar with the rates of health problems of pure-breds vs. mixed breeds. Are you saying it's more or less likely for a mixed breed without papers, whom did not come from a breeder to have a health problem than one who came from a "reputable" breeder?

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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rescue....but im a reptile guy.

I'm assuming you aren't "rescuing" them from the wild.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Nightingale 0]

It really depends on the breed. Some breeds are healthier than others. Having a mixed breed may minimize some genetic diseases, but since genetic disease is not usually unique to only one breed, you can have a dog with a genetic disease that is pure bred or mixed breed.

That said, I think you are less likely to get a dog with a genetic disease from a breeder who tests her dogs for the genetic diseases that tend to run in that breed.

[PLFXpert 0]

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My point is that the rest need good homes just as much as rescues.

Therein lies the rub.

Why do you think so many animals need homes in the first place?

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[livendive 8]

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My point is that the rest need good homes just as much as rescues.

Therein lies the rub.

Why do you think so many animals need homes in the first place?

Mostly because entirely too many people think "Sampson" would be less of a dog with his testicles removed, or it can wait till "next month" when they've got more expendable cash (and "next month" and "next month"...). Also because too many people think "FiFi" is soooo cute that they just have to breed her with their friend's dog. And finally because too many people think 101 Dalmations was the greatest movie ever and Little Johnny just has to have one of those spotted puppies...which just happen to be for sale down at the mall, and surely won't ever get any bigger, develop any health problems, or require any actual effort of any sort on their part.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[PLFXpert 0]

And Sampson & Fifi's owners decide to be breeders to help pay for Little Johnny's roller-sneaks.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[livendive 8]

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And Sampson & Fifi's owners decide to be breeders to help pay for Little Johnny's roller-sneaks.

Yep, that one too. I hate it when people ask me about breeding my dogs without knowing anything more about them than their looks. I hate it more when their rationale is how much money we could make off the puppies.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)