kozak 0 #1 January 3, 2006 Hey everyone..... I'm looking at buying a 109 Micro Raven MZ. It's a hybrid reserve with a ZP topskin? DOM 99. Anyone who has had any rigging experience with these canopies, or any jumps on them, kindly share some feedback with me, good or bad..... appreciate it!! *KOZAK* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #2 January 3, 2006 Real easy.. if you're loading a 107 at 1.9... just say no to the Micro Raven 109 ... ZP or otherwise. ZP reserves make little sense. Micro ravens have a very very short control range. People stall them all the time and land on their backs. If you're going to get something that small, get a PD-R 106 Personally I would suggest the 113. I have flown a 109 and I was extremely current. It took all my skill to not stall it. My 106 PD was much easier to land but I would upsize to a 113 if I could find a close trade.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kozak 0 #3 January 3, 2006 Thanks man.... that's what I've been hearing... It's not a good deal if won't land.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #4 January 3, 2006 Quote Micro ravens have a very very short control range. People stall them all the time and land on their backs. Thans for the public service announement. Nice to know since I have a MR 150 in my rig. I'm guessing the full thread is even short than a Sabre (e.g. Icarus say how their full flare is a lot lower than a PD product flaring with a lot less input). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #5 January 3, 2006 How much do you weigh? Your profile says you're at 1.03 to 1 which makes you pretty light. Loading it higher has it's disadvantages. That said, if you do a control check and pay attention, you should be fine. I've never stalled one and loaded each one quite a lot more than 1 to 1. The key was a control check. If you fail to do a control check and just cram on the brakes at 10 feet you will stall it. Cramming on the brakes is a common mistake and it stems from lack of canopy control checks. You should be ok under it. It is just a parachute so fly it as such. Ravens have been around for a long time. It's the smaller ones that are the most touchy to fly. By the way, the info is all over this forum and it says the same thing I did and more. If you care too, do a search on Micro Raven.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #6 January 3, 2006 I have packed hundreds of Raven reserves and even a few MZs. MZs pack pretty much the same, you just have to be patient i.e. flake and clamp one step then wait a few minutes before trying the next step. Yes, it takes and extra half hour to squeeze the air out, but a smart rigger can other productive things to do during that time. Remember the Service Bulletin that applies to all Dash M series Ravens. I prefer the factory fix which involves replacing the line attachment tabs with Type I webbing. As for bad-mouthing the stall characteristics of Ravens ... douh!!! Most of the people that whine about Ravens stalling too early made the mistake of loading them more than 1.4 pounds per square foot. Douh! This is on a canopy that was designed before wing-loadings of 1:1 became fashionable! Precision has addressed most of these complaints with their current R-Max series of reserves. I made on jump on an R-Max 188 recently and even though I seriously over-loaded it, it still set me down softly. For the record, I do not work for Precision and was not compensated for this endorsement. Heck! That cheap bastard Galloway haven't even sent me a t-shirt! Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #7 January 3, 2006 The most I have ever weighed was 146 right before I turned 20. I wrestled at 103 all 4 years in high school...even though I had to cut 12 pounds my senior year. Then I ate everything in site and started to work out a bunch. 2 years ago, while training for Corporate Challenge (a 3.5 mile run at Chrissy Field - I did it at 6:08 pace), I was down to 126. Now, I'm in the 130-135 range usually, so usually about 155 OTD. I'm not a huge person. My small canopy to date is a Pilot 140 I demoed at the Byron Boogie. Demoed a Safire2-149 at Eloy (PD wasn't there for me to demo a Sabre2-135 as I wanted). Landings are a little speedier at Eloy compared to Byron, but I stood them all up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #8 January 3, 2006 Quote I have packed hundreds of Raven reserves and even a few MZs. Me too and they pack well, but...... Quote Remember the Service Bulletin that applies to all Dash M series Ravens. I prefer the factory fix which involves replacing the line attachment tabs with Type I webbing. The factory and also Master Riggers can do that modification, though most just send them back to Precision. We changed out quite a few here. Quote As for bad-mouthing the stall characteristics of Ravens ... douh!!! Most of the people that whine about Ravens stalling too early made the mistake of loading them more than 1.4 pounds per square foot. Douh! This is on a canopy that was designed before wing-loadings of 1:1 became fashionable! The same people were jumping canopies from Glide Path and PD at the same wing loadings( or close) with no problems. I have had at least four reserve rides or more on the 135 Micro-Raven and will have no more! Sold all of mine and replaced them with Mini-Crickets and PD 126R's. Quote Precision has addressed most of these complaints with their current R-Max series of reserves. I made on jump on an R-Max 188 recently and even though I seriously over-loaded it, it still set me down softly. I hear good things about the R-Max.. Maybe George could send me a demo, I would try it out. Quote For the record, I do not work for Precision and was not compensated for this endorsement. Yet!!!!!! Quote Heck! That cheap bastard Galloway haven't even sent me a t-shirt! It's probably in the mail! Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #9 January 3, 2006 QuoteI'm looking at buying a 109 Micro Raven MZ. It's a hybrid reserve with a ZP topskin? DOM 99. Anyone who has had any rigging experience with these canopies, or any jumps on them, kindly share some feedback with me, good or bad... I'm jumping a 120-mz that I load at about 1:1.8-9 or so...have put one jump on it (after a nasty little line over on my xaos) and landed it at 5500' msl. Did a little over a 90 degree toggle turn for landing and got a 80-100 ft swoop out of it before a nice soft landing. Also just repacked it Saturday...like what was said before, just have to take your time and it really is not much different than anything else (I did try to rush bagging it and it turned into a mess!). Clamps and weights really become your friends!Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #10 January 3, 2006 I have heard, but do not know for sure that it is true, that ZP fabric is more likely to fail catastrophically than is F111 type fabric. This info came from at least one master rigger. Is there any truth to this? For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #11 January 3, 2006 From PD's website: "...Major concern involves tear strength at high speeds. Tears, friction burns, and other types of damage can be caused by something as simple as lines or a riser dragging past the reserve as it deploys. If a tear or other type of failure occurs on an “F-111” type canopy, it is likely to be self-contained and landable. With zero-p fabric, damage tends to be catastrophic and makes the canopy unlandable. Also, burn damage is much harder to detect on zero-p. Frequently burn damage just looks like a crease in the fabric, when in fact the tensile strength in the area has been lowered to only a few pounds. Zero-p canopies also tend to have a higher pack volume, and are generally not as easy to pack as "F-111" type material. We would prefer to make things as easy as possible for your rigger, and think the advantages of being able to fit a slightly larger reserve in your rig outweigh any advantages that a zero-p reserve would provide." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #12 January 3, 2006 Here's PD's stance on using F-111. "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #13 January 3, 2006 QuoteZP reserves make little sense. I think the aim was at crw dogs who have frequent reserve rides...ZP will not lose it's porosity after 25-30 rides like an f-111 canopy will.Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #14 January 3, 2006 QuoteI think the aim was at crw dogs who have frequent reserve rides... When they first came out, the party line was that the zp topskin was not specifically for frequent fliers but more because the top skin sees the most wear from repacking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #15 January 3, 2006 Ahh, yea, that does make sense... Well, whatever the reason, mine flew fantastic for me, even while severely overloading it at a high alt dz.Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
