justinb138 0 #26 December 23, 2005 Quote I know some people are turned off by the fact that it is not a fully zero p canopy, but for a young jumper just mastering packing the ease of packing hybrids is just what the doctor ordered It works well for lazy people like me too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #27 December 23, 2005 QuoteSilhouettes do seem to get great reviews but there seem to be none around. Well-kept secret? I'm guessing the half F-111 thing scares some people off. The Sil I have has about 300 jumps on it, and it still flies and flares very nicely. Quote Lotus Silhouette Firebolt I've put a few jumps on the Silhouette, Firebolt, Spectre, Sabre2, and Safire2, and preferred the Firebolt over the others. I would have loved to try a Lotus, but they don't make one in a size I'd be willing to try out just yet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #28 December 23, 2005 QuoteI thought the Lotus has 9 cells? \ It is a 9 cell.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #29 December 23, 2005 QuoteI thought the Lotus has 9 cells? That might explain why my jump on one didn't open the way I wanted it to - if I packed it like it had two extra cells, then who knows what pieces of nylon I was grabbing and moving around. You're right. I stand corrected. The Lotus is indeed a nine cell. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #30 December 23, 2005 I never did understand why half-and-half canopy fabric scares some people off. Hybred canopies fly like ZP, but pack like F-111. Most student and tandem canopies are now built this way. Heck, we have hybred (SET 400s) with more than 1200 jumps that are only now starting to "tire." As for the original question from the junior jumper: Sabre original if you pack neatly Sabre 2 if you don't pack neatly Safire 1 or 2 Silhouette At his experience level, he would be wise to keep his wing-loading near one pound per square foot. For example, if his exit weight (all dressed for a skydive) is 190 pounds, then he should buy main and reserver canopies in the 190 square foot range. I liked the Firebolt 396, but do not have any experience with smaller Firebolts. Diablos and Stilettos turn far too fast for junior jumpers. Other too-fast canopies include: Crossfire, Katana, Velocity, Vengance, Icarus Extremely Extreme, Rave, Rage, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,092 #31 December 23, 2005 >why did you not mention the fusion? Nothing bad about it that I know of. I just haven't jumped one yet, and I hesitate to recommend canopies I have not jumped. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #32 December 23, 2005 Quote>why did you not mention the fusion? Nothing bad about it that I know of. I just haven't jumped one yet, and I hesitate to recommend canopies I have not jumped. gotcha, just wanted to check. thanks. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kleggo 145 #33 December 23, 2005 QuoteWhat in the world is that supossed to mean.....that's why I hate posting questions on this site ....most of you guys make me feel stupid for asking a simple question ...how are you supposed to learn if you do not ask....sorry I was not born with a cypress up my ass......but racial slurs should not be allowed on this site.....anyway thanks for nothin' __________________________________________________ Thanks That’s one of the funniest bits of whining I’ve seen in a long time. be safe kleggo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #34 December 23, 2005 QuoteI never did understand why half-and-half canopy fabric scares some people off. Hybred canopies fly like ZP, but pack like F-111. Most student and tandem canopies are now built this way. Heck, we have hybred (SET 400s) with more than 1200 jumps that are only now starting to "tire." Has anyone been able to explain why they fly nearly the same as long as the top skin is ZP? I don't recall ever hearing a good explanation. Quote I liked the Firebolt 396, but do not have any experience with smaller Firebolts. I've flown a 200 a few times, and it flew pretty similar to a Sabre2 210, but with better openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #35 December 23, 2005 Quoteavoid the Safire 1 I was curious as to your logic behind this statement. The Safires I have jumped I have been very pleased with. I found them to have opening, flight and landing characteristics similar to Sabre2 of comparable size. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #36 December 23, 2005 QuoteI would not recommend buying (or even jumping, for that matter) an original Sabre.It's not THAT bad. Just make sure to follow all the reasonable guidelines that PD recommends (many original Sabre's shipped with a smaller slider than what PD recommends now -- you can reduce quite a few hard openings by upsizing the slider to the current PD recommended size). Don't let the brake lines shrink too much; my openings did become somewhat softer after the old shrunk brake lines were replaced. (Earlier, the brake lines started the flare band right at the stops -- now the flare band starts approx 6 inches down) Contact PD for today's recommended specs for your current Sabre and you can make a Sabre much safer. During the last 50 jumps my Sabre has been predictably 'brisk' -- not uncomfortable, but brisk. Oftentimes sloppy (off-heading). People have gotten badly hurt under a Sabre opening - BUT as I later learned also can happen under other brands of canopy too (broken bone under, what was it -- a Safire -- I'll have to do a search, just found it was not unique to Sabre). Any canopy can misbehave. Sabre 2 also has a reputation too, although less than Sabre. Just saying it's not THAT bad if you can only afford used... You might be a rigger and I am not, and you might be concerned about sloppy paid packers packing a killer opening due to Sabres' sensitivity to bite. So I might recommend to always self-pack that Sabre though, just in case Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #37 December 23, 2005 QuoteHas anyone been able to explain why they fly nearly the same as long as the top skin is ZP? Due to the pressure differences of the air passing over the top skin (low pressure) and the air passing over the bottom skin, the air primarily "tries" to escape from the canopy through the top skin, and not through the bottom skin, where the pressure is higher. A hybrid with a ZP bottom skin and an F111 top skin would likely fly much like an all F111 canopy. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #38 December 23, 2005 QuoteQuoteHas anyone been able to explain why they fly nearly the same as long as the top skin is ZP? Due to the pressure differences of the air passing over the top skin (low pressure) and the air passing over the bottom skin, the air primarily "tries" to escape from the canopy through the top skin, and not through the bottom skin, where the pressure is higher. A hybrid with a ZP bottom skin and an F111 top skin would likely fly much like an all F111 canopy. Thanks, that seems to make sense. I've always wondered if air escaping through the top skin could affect the airflow over the top of the canopy enough to make a difference as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,092 #39 December 23, 2005 >A hybrid with a ZP bottom skin and an F111 top skin would likely fly >much like an all F111 canopy. I'd disagree there. The efficiency of a porous wing is related to how much air passes through it. Pressure below the canopy is higher; above the canopy it is lower. Making EITHER the top skin or bottom skin ZP will dramatically decrease the amount of air leaking through the wing. Stability is another story. A very porous bottom skin will result in _more_ pressure inside the cell; a very porous topskin will result in _less_ pressure inside the cell. Pressure doesn't have everything to do with stability, but it is a factor. Given that, an old ZP topskin canopy should be a bit more stable than an old ZP bottomskin canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,092 #40 December 23, 2005 > The Safires I have jumped I have been very pleased with. I found > them to have opening, flight and landing characteristics similar to > Sabre2 of comparable size. I had a Safire 1 for about 100 jumps. It tended to open hard and did not flare well. It wasn't until I put the brake-line mod on it (i.e. put the Safire 2 geometry brakelines on it) that it started behaving better. That being said, if you can get a cheap Safire 1 and get the brake-line mod done, it can be a good option. Remember that the early Safires were NOT measured like all the other canopies out there; they tended to 'rate' about 10% larger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #41 December 23, 2005 QuoteI had a Safire 1 for about 100 jumps. It tended to open hard and did not flare well. It wasn't until I put the brake-line mod on it (i.e. put the Safire 2 geometry brakelines on it) that it started behaving better. I had no such issues with mine, but the one I put the most jumps on got a factory reline as soon as I bought it. It may well have had brake-line mods, but I couldn't say for certain. I suppose it could also be because it might have been built by a different manufacturer. To the original poster: If at all possible, DEMO BEFORE BUYING!!!! For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #42 December 23, 2005 The Lotus has 9-cells. From the web site: "The Lotus is Big Air's medium performance 9-Cell parachute equipped with “Airlocks". Similar in some ways to the PD Sabre 2, the Lotus is a versatile airfoil that will please both conservative experienced skydivers, and newer jumpers looking for a safe canopy. The rigid feel of the wing is reminiscent of the Jedei, but without the severe “ground-hungriness” or radical turns associated with elliptical designs." Triathlon was my "first" parachute off student status. I liked it until I jumped a Spectre and then a Lotus. The Lotus is an awesome parachute. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #43 December 23, 2005 Safires tend to rate about 10% smaller then their PD counterparts. A Safire 149 measure out to be about a 140 in PD sizing.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #44 December 23, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhat in the world is that supossed to mean.....that's why I hate posting questions on this site ....most of you guys make me feel stupid for asking a simple question ...how are you supposed to learn if you do not ask....sorry I was not born with a cypress up my ass......but racial slurs should not be allowed on this site.....anyway thanks for nothin' __________________________________________________ Thanks That’s one of the funniest bits of whining I’ve seen in a long time. be safe kleggo Give the dude a break, for pete's sake. Sheesh. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #45 December 23, 2005 Quote> The Safires I have jumped I have been very pleased with. I found > them to have opening, flight and landing characteristics similar to > Sabre2 of comparable size. I had a Safire 1 for about 100 jumps. It tended to open hard and did not flare well. It wasn't until I put the brake-line mod on it (i.e. put the Safire 2 geometry brakelines on it) that it started behaving better. That being said, if you can get a cheap Safire 1 and get the brake-line mod done, it can be a good option. Remember that the early Safires were NOT measured like all the other canopies out there; they tended to 'rate' about 10% larger. I think the European (Spanish) Safire 1's are great canopies, but I've heard different about American made Safire's. Anyway my Safire 1 135 was a great canopy, it still is, the girl who bought it off me a year or so ago now wants to buy another one for her 2nd rig. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #46 December 24, 2005 At the 2001 PIA Symposium, Icarus announced that they stopped using the old PIA measuring method (Span measured across the top skin a few inches aft of top leading edge) and were switching to the method used by Performance Designs. PD, Atair and a few others measure span across the bottom skin. Ergo, a pre-2001 Icarus canopy will have about 10% more fabric than a new Icarus canopy with the same published area. Note: because of "crown rigging" all ram-air canopies have wider top skins than bottom skins. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #47 December 24, 2005 Rob, here is a letter from Icarus about this issue: The Safire-1 and the Omega are measured differently to PD canopies. As a rough guide a Safire-1 or Omega is about the same size as the next size down - eg A Safire 149 is about a 135. A Safire 119 is about a 109. Use an equation of 8%. The Safire-2 and Omni (Omni supercedes Omega) are measured the same as PD. All other Icarus Canopies are measured the same as PD. The reason for the difference is due to Precision measuring their canopies differently. Icarus have always measured the same as PD however when we originally commenced in the USA, Precision were building parachutes for us under license and were doing it using their size equations and not Icarus/PD's. We have therefore had to wait to supercede these models to change the size equation. Only the Safire and Omega were affected. Blue skies Simon Icarus Canopies USA: 1S671 Bender Lane, West Chicago, IL 60185, USA Ph. (630) 562-2735, Fax (630) 231-4430 Europe: P.I. El Ramassar, c/ Vallés, s/n O8520, Les Franqueses, Barcelona, SPAIN. Ph. (34) 938 496 432, Fax (34) 938 497 971 www.icaruscanopies.com The 10% figure is smaller, not larger. A Safire1 149 is about the same size as a Sabre2 135. A Safire 149 is about 8% smaller then a Safire2 149.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
