Jumping a low WL HP canopy

[FrogNog 1]

I've never run across a Firebolt or anyone that has one as far as I know. I'll keep my eyes skinned for one.

And, are you sure you mean "snappy turns, soft openings" instead of "snappy openings, soft turns"? I just want to be sure.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[FrogNog 1]

By the way, please nobody tell me a Batwing 170 might behave in the manner I'm looking for. Tell me it would do something totally wrong for my declared preferences so I feel better for trading one a while back for a Kong 300 I could jump for novelty.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[FrogNog 1]

Actually, my acquaintance has a Safire 2, not a Safire 1. A friend of mine and I had some miscommunication.

A helpful note to gear manufacturers: either put "1" after all your model names or quit making new, different products and putting "2" after the name.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[marks 0]

how much do you weigh?

[justinb138 0]

Quote

Another canopy you might want to try is the Firebolt (Jumpshack). I've been jumping one and am really impressed with it's performance, although I'm loading it at closer to 1.2. It has most of what you are asking for - snappy turns, soft openings, good flare (these are the characteristics that I was looking for in a canopy). I can't comment on recovery arc or front riser pressure as I haven't bothered to pay attention to them - I'm not doing HP landings.

I put a few jumps on a Firebolt this weekend. It seemed to fly alot like a Sabre2. The flare was similar, although the Firebolt had a slightly longer recovery arc and was more sensitive to body position on opening. Front and rear riser pressure seemed a little bit lighter as well.

[alan 1]

Quote

and do front-riser S-turns on final sometimes.

This results in an increased potential for a collision, especially at a busier DZ or boogie. It is far safer to be more precise in your pattern altitudes and use brakes for adjustment rather than S turns.

Unfortunately, many students learn to do this while on radio because it seems easier for the person on the ground and there are usually very few, if any, other canopies in the area while a student is in the pattern.

It is important to learn to use S turns, as well as when and where they are appropriate. S turns are great for collision avoidance, and may often need to be done "flat" in that circumstance. "Gentle" S turns on downwind and base can help you set up better for final and more importantly give you a better view for any nearby traffic. S turns are cool up high for the same reason, get a better view of traffic before making a more radical turn or spiralling. This is not a comprehensive discussion on the topic, but you get the idea. There are times that S turns aren't the safest choice and we can use fixed wing aircraft as a model like we do for our standard patterns.

For example, while it may not be a perfect analogy, But when a jump aircraft turns on final, they don't adjust their glide path with S turns, but instead use throttle and pitch. Minor adjustments are made to the heading to stay centered over the runway.

A canopy pilot can use brakes to adjust the glide path and make small heading adjustments to stay on the wind line. Just think, 12 or 13 other canopies may all be landing in the same area at about the same time after an Otter load. These canopies can vary greatly in speed and performance and will have pilots of varying skill levels. This may spread them out a little and the load type and exit spacing may help do this as well. But I have been around long enough to know that it is not uncommon for several canopies to be vying for the same airspace on final. At this point if one pilot does something unpredictable or unanticipated by another pilot, a collision can result.

S turns are simply not as predictable as a nice, straight approach on final with only minor heading adjustments. So, what about the swoopers doing big 270's and 360's on to final? They usually have a separate area for this and again are usually more experienced pilots with the skill and experience to know where and when to expect other canopies and make good decisions for setting up their approaches. Also, they usually are skilled enough so that the approaches they set up are very predictable and finish with a nice straight final coming out of the recovery arc.

The key here is being predictable. You seem to have that idea because you "like to fly part or all of my box pattern (three 90 turns, more or less;". It is just a thing that falls through the cracks at many DZs. Students get accustomed to doing S turns while on radio and then just continue doing them as they progress and the more experienced pilots let it slide until it becomes an issue. Over time though, many of the "experienced" pilots are ones that fell through the crack and then virtually no one knows any better.

Sorry for the big speech, I just thought that if I was going to comment on the S turn on final thing, that I should at least explain myself. I won't take the time to look it up, but there may even be a recommendation about this in the SIM. You may have figured this out by now, but I'll say it anyway. This post isn't a direct criticism aimed at only you, but just something thrown out there for all of us to think about.

alan

[tso-d_chris 0]

Never had the "flare mod," but I never had any complaints about a Safire(1) 129 I used to fly.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

the contrail is subcontract manufactured for performance variable is is not the same as a cobalt designed and manufactured by atair

That does not answer my question, which was

Quote

Will it be docile or dangerous at a wingloading of 1.4 lbs per square foot? The manufacturer says both, in the same paragraph.

For Great Deals on Gear

[cobaltdan 0]

i believe you are referring to a manual from performance variable. you should field your question to them.

with that said i have jumped contrails and i am familiar with their design. it is basically identical to a stilletto.

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

i believe you are referring to a manual from performance variable. you should field your question to them.

Actually, I replied to someone else's post, and referred to the "manufacturer," and never named them. Maybe you meant to reply to that post, and not mine?

For Great Deals on Gear

[Nullified 0]

Quote

Calculate the wing loading now for the Contrail canopy you intend to jump.
If this figure is below 1.4 lbs/ft², the parachute will be relatively docile and easy to land. It will also have reduced penetration into the wind and reduced inflation pressure in the entire canopy. The profile will not be as rigid as it should be. A figure below 1.4 lbs/ft² is as dangerous as a figure above 2.3 lbs/ft²!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Will it be docile or dangerous at a wingloading of 1.4 lbs per square foot? The manufacturer says both, in the same paragraph.

Cobalt Dan,

Can you offer an informed opinion regarding the general spirit of the statement as it refers to canopies in general, to your canopies, or to any other canopy that you are familiar with?

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

... Sorry for the big speech, ...

No worries. I saw it coming as soon as I said I liked to do S-turns on Final. I don't take it personally.

Basically when I'm doing my S-turns you can assume I have an entire landing airspace to myself. At least for the rest of Winter in Snohomish.

When it's Summer and things are different, or when I'm at another DZ, I'm all about the predictability. Sometimes this means straight flight patterns, sometimes it means front riser stuff to increase my descent speed and avoid slowing up people behind me. And I think the S-turns (or sashays, if you prefer; I don't move _that_ far off my approach line

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[FrogNog 1]

Quote

how much do you weigh?

I am now 170 when I dance nekkid in front of the windows. I should be just under 200 out the door.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[marks 0]

well i was thinkin 149 safire for you, but i dont watch your landings and what not, so you make sure you make the right decision for yourself.

but with that said, you do have 500 jumps, it all depends on what your interest's in the sport are and what you want out of a canopy.

i wouldnt hold you back from that canopy size or planform, if you where willing to listen and progress.

but think about what you want in skydiving and focus on it and go after it. make good choices and get coaching...

• Quote

[FrogNog 1]

I'll start with the Safire 189 (which I understand compares to a 175); I'm comfy with that size.

I broke something skipping the 170 size once before; I don't want to repeat that.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[cobaltdan 0]

general spirit of the statement? perhaps it is a typo or an incorrect translation from german?

yes canopies can be underloaded leading to less than ideal performance, however that point is significantly below 1.4# for any canopy design i am familiar with.

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[CygnusX-1 43]

Quote

And, are you sure you mean "snappy turns, soft openings" instead of "snappy openings, soft turns"?

Well, that all depends on your frame of reference. My last canopy was a Saber1 190, so of course everything opens softly.