Fab 0 #1 November 10, 2005 Hi, I have a question...I have a rig (half year old) with a ring on my harnas showing two cracks. It is said (by riggers) that it's a forging fault. They are not normal scratches from normal use but it's clearly visible and you can feel it. Although my rigger sais it's safe to jump for now he is not very happy with it also. it's stainless steel so it's not the coating. My question...the manufacturer is offering to replace the ring..but that means harnas work...removing stitching and fix it again. I don't like the idea of harnas work on a rig that's only a half year old. if harnas work is done won't the harnas itself be less strong/reliable? What do you think? I appreciate your thoughts/input...thanks _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #2 November 10, 2005 Let the manufacturer replace the ring, the harness will be more than strong enough after they repair it. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #3 November 10, 2005 Quote...Although my rigger sais it's safe to jump for now he is not very happy with it also. IMHO...Send it in...no questions asked...I'm surprised that a rigger would say that...but then I'm not a rigger...just more concerned with my safety should the ring fail.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #4 November 10, 2005 I am a rigger, and I would be perfectly comfortable with the manufacturer replacing the ring. If I were the manufacturer I would be anxious to look at it. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #5 November 10, 2005 Quote...If I were the manufacturer I would be anxious to look at it. Oooooo, good point.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #6 November 10, 2005 Send the rig back to the manufacturer. It sounds like a main malfunction waiting for an inconvenient time/place to happen. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #7 November 10, 2005 I am a rigger also and I used to build gear for among others, Bill Booth. First, I can't imagine any rigger telling someone it's ok to jump a ring with visible cracks. Second, if I got such a rig back, when replacing the ring(s), I would go through the same stiching holes as the original pattern when re-assembling to minimize any new cutting (the needle going through the webbing does cut some material). I would be perfectly comfortable jumping such a repaired rig. The newly sewed area would still NOT be the weakest link in your harness system. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packing_jarrett 0 #8 November 10, 2005 how were you able to build gear when your profile says your only a senior riggerNa' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fab 0 #9 November 10, 2005 Thanks for all the replies..My rig will be send for repair as soon as possible...but this means I can't jump for at least 6 weeks ... Fortunatly it's winter and cold as hell... _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #10 November 10, 2005 Quotehow were you able to build gear when your profile says your only a senior rigger He worked for a gear manufacturer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #11 November 10, 2005 Quotehow were you able to build gear when your profile says your only a senior rigger No rating required to build containers or reserves. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #12 November 10, 2005 Quotehow were you able to build gear when your profile says your only a senior rigger You don't have to be ANY kind of rigger to build gear for a manufacturer. And in the early days of the Wonderhog, SST, Eagle, and I'm sure all other custom gear of the time (mid 70s), none were even TSOd, scary huh.... It didn't mean the gear wasn't safer than the TSOd military surplus or even the TSOd "HOG" (Pioneer, Strong) rigs of the time, just that things were a bit "looser" regulation wise then.... I believe Bill was selling Wonderhogs for over three years before he attained his first TSO. Literally hundreds of rigs were sold in the meantime. ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 644 #13 November 10, 2005 QuoteQuotehow were you able to build gear when your profile says your only a senior rigger He worked for a gear manufacturer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the same reason that most of the ladies in production have never held any sort of FAA license ... as long as their work passes the (TSO) final inspector everything is legal. I repaired/re-sized/replaced hundreds of Talon harnesses while only an FAA Senior Rigger, but a Master Rigger was looking over my shoulder and all my work had to pass R.I.'s final inspectors. Even after I earned a Master Rigger rating, all my work still had to pass the final inspectors. Defective hardware may only sneak through production 1% of the time, but replacing it is standard procedure. As long as you use a good needle, most harness webbing can be sewn three times. And remember that manufacturers are fanatics about their products looking pretty. If there is the slightest damage to webbing, they will replace it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #14 November 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuotehow were you able to build gear when your profile says your only a senior rigger He worked for a gear manufacturer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the same reason that most of the ladies in production have never held any sort of FAA license ... as long as their work passes the (TSO) final inspector everything is legal. I repaired/re-sized/replaced hundreds of Talon harnesses while only an FAA Senior Rigger, but a Master Rigger was looking over my shoulder and all my work had to pass R.I.'s final inspectors. Even after I earned a Master Rigger rating, all my work still had to pass the final inspectors. Defective hardware may only sneak through production 1% of the time, but replacing it is standard procedure. As long as you use a good needle, most harness webbing can be sewn three times. And remember that manufacturers are fanatics about their products looking pretty. If there is the slightest damage to webbing, they will replace it. Dead on! And just to be clear, I worked for Bill Booth building Wonderhogs and Bill Buchman building Eagle rigs, both of these gentlemen had Master Riggers Licenses. As for the TSO stuff, here is something to think about. If the current enforcements were in place in 1974 (when the Wonderhog, SST, and others got started), there would probably not be a RWS or Jump Shack today. The cost of the TSO process was just too high for a "start up" manufacturer. In those days, you built and sold gear until you had enough money to do the TSO drops. I think that's probably why you don't see new manufacturers coming along these days like you did then. You may say "but it's much safer this way." To which I would reply, maybe. In 1974 I was jumping two rigs, a Surplus B12 main harness container with a pop-top reserve and a Pioneer "Pig Rig" (also called Hogs at the time). Bill Booth shows up at Deland one day with his new Wonderhog prototype, thin (by those days standards), light, no bungies, plastic ripcords, wrap-around pilot chute on the outside of the rig. One look and I knew it was safer than anything I had jumped to date. Luckily for me, Bill was looking for someone to build them I built the first 100 + Wonderhogs and then Bill hired three other builders, none with riggers licenses. They didn't need them then (or now) as Bill was the Master Rigger in charge. I don't think that can happen today and that is sad to some extent.... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #15 November 10, 2005 QuoteBill was the Master Rigger in charge. Bill Booth's profile says he has a Senior rating only, and no Master rating . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #16 November 10, 2005 Quoteas Bill was the Master Rigger in charge. I believe Bill is a Senior rigger. You do not need to be a rigger to design, manufacture or sell gear. Even the TSO QA points during manufacturing can be preformed by a non rigger. A rigger certificate is only required after the gear has been manufactured and becomes property of the public. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #17 November 10, 2005 Ok, then read it "As Bill was the manufacturer in charge." ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #18 November 10, 2005 As was suggested here, send it back to the manufacturer and get the rings replaced. If it were me, inspecting your rig and found cracks in the rings, I'd 'ground' it until the repairs were made. Cracks in hardware, lead to breaks. One of the things we (riggers) look for during our inspection of a harness-container is cracks or deformity of the rings and hardware. I'd be willing to bet, since the rig is not that old, they'll do the job for free! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,471 #19 November 10, 2005 To steal from Roger RamJet: Dead on, Sparky. I've been following this board for about a year (maybe a little less) and am continually amazed at what people (however, no actual fault of their own; they've simply never been educated) really do not know about the TSO process and what it means. In my opinion (Note the terminology), it means one thing: repeatability, you can make the SAME thing over & over & over & over . . . . I guess that I have been fortunate in that I hold 6 TSO-authorizations (companies that I own) and served on the SAE TSO committee for nearly 20 years. Both have been tremendous learning experiences for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #20 November 10, 2005 I've always gone with the idea it's all right to un-stitch and re-stitch a harness just once. But sometimes the problem is knowing for sure if the time you do it "is" the first time. If there really is a crack in the harness ring, or even if not, but it's something that's bothering you, don't jump it anymore and get it replaced. NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #21 November 11, 2005 QuoteIn my opinion (Note the terminology), it means one thing: repeatability, you can make the SAME thing over & over & over & over . . . . And don't forget traceability, the Feds are big on traceability. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #22 November 11, 2005 QuoteThanks for all the replies..My rig will be send for repair as soon as possible...but this means I can't jump for at least 6 weeks ... Fortunatly it's winter and cold as hell... Well all right then, this could've happened at the beginning of summer and you'd really have been screwed. But Fab, check this out - you're talking about your PARACHUTE HARNESS. This is the thing that makes it OK for you to jump out of an airplane. Without it, or if it ever failed, you would "die". Too many jumpers make too many serious or even fatal mistakes trying to squeeze one more jump out of gear they KNOW they shouldn't be jumping. Doing the smart thing can take discipline. So do the right thing and live to be an old man. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,471 #23 November 11, 2005 Sparky, Some feds are and some feds aren't (re your comment on traceability). In the TSO process, the only thing they actually approve is your QA Program. I spent over 30 yrs working for the feds (non-FAA) in QA (approving/reviewing/rejecting QA Programs throughout North America, Europe, Asia & South America) and I am totally convinced that the FAA does not have a clue about what a real QA Program should be. They (in my opinion & experience) tend to focus on Inspections Systems, and that is not QA. As for traceability, you can have it in detail or you can not have it at all, or you can have something in between. It is really about how much risk that you (the mfr) are willing to take. Adding to that, most QA Programs that I have reviewed/approved/rejected have not had complete traceability. It all depends how one wants to do their warehousing/stocking of materials. And, of course, their documentation control. These systems can be very complex or very simple. Sorry to carry on but these things are very dear to my heart; too many days on the firing line, so to speak. If I ever get down to your part of the world, we'll have to get together & imbibe in a few and kick these types of things around. And at the end of the day, I really do like your posts; you're right on the money about 99.44% of the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #24 November 11, 2005 Jerry, From my post on the Proof loading thread. QuoteThanks Jerry. Some day I would like to spend some time following you around. The possibility of learning things would be great. Sparky My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fab 0 #25 November 12, 2005 yes..you are right...I'll get it fixed.... 6 weeks will be the longest time off from jumping for though since one year....I wonder what kind of withdrawal symptoms I can expect . _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
