snafuhere 0 #1 October 4, 2005 I made 250 jumps this year on my Spectre 170 (loaded @ 1.16). Nice landings, crosswind, downwind, 180 turns, good canopy control. I am going to downsize to 135 or 150 and will go with Spectre because of nice openings and wingsuit flying. My concern is, 135 Spectre would be loaded @ 1.47 and that is high according to PD charts. 150 Spectre would be loaded @ 1.32, seems OK but: - I have tried Spectre 150 and did not see any particular difference from 170. - Just to have some comparison I also tried Nitro 150, Stiletto 150, Sabre2 150. None of those was too fast or difficult to manage in light wind conditions. From my perspective the real difference between Spectre 170 and Stiletto 150 or Nitro 150 is in the toggle control range. You just use less of toggle input to make a controlled turn. Two questions: 1) Is Spectre 135 havily loded @ 1.47 ? 2) Is there a real difference in handling between 170 and 150 ? The second question I ask because I’m afraid that changing to 150 will bring little performance/speed gain and I will not see any difference. Any comments on that? https://www.facebook.com/1skydive/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #2 October 4, 2005 This is really something you should discuss with your instructors, as they know you best. Take any advise you get here with a grain of salt...most likely the people giving it do not know you or how you fly, and you do not know how qualified they might be to give the advice. As to the canopies, why rush the downsize? In general going to a 150 for a while first would be the safer way to go, but again...you could be some sort of canopy prodigy who might handle more of a downsize just fine, but that is something your instructors would be better at guiding you on. Hope this helps...Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #3 October 4, 2005 Well with nearly 300 jumps I doubt he regularly talks to "his instructors" anymore, but I will say this. At 300 jumps I would let you jump a 1.3 wingload at our dropzone. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #4 October 4, 2005 Quote Is there a real difference in handling between 170 and 150 ? As you get smaller and smaller, the same difference in size has a more pronounced affect. For example, I don't notice much difference between a 230 and a 210, but I do notice a big difference between a 150 and a 135. Remember that we don't pick our canopy size for when everything goes right, we pick our canopy size for when everything goes wrong. It seems like you've gotten some good advice from people suggesting you jump a 150. Also, I'm surprised that you're sticking with the Spectre. Generally people who are looking for fast sporty landings don't stick with a 7 cell. If you're trying to get into high performance landings you'd probably do better to switch to a 9 cell. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #5 October 4, 2005 QuoteWell with nearly 300 jumps I doubt he regularly talks to "his instructors" anymore Why not...do I try to be more involved than the average instructor? I try to help positively influence any of my peers, regardless of how many jumps they have. If he doesn't he should. QuoteAt 300 jumps I would let you jump a 1.3 wingload at our dropzone. While that is generally an acceptable w/l for his experience I am hesitant to tell anyone that they are good to go on a particular canopy unless I have seen them fly it. Just how I do things...doesn't mean it's the right way.Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #6 October 4, 2005 Why do you want to downsize? How do you fly your current main? Have you done everything possible to make your current canopy fly faster? What do you think a smaller main will do that your current main doesn't do? Basically, what do you want out of your next canopy? QuoteJust to have some comparison I also tried Nitro 150, Stiletto 150, Sabre2 150. None of those was too fast or difficult to manage in light wind conditions. Sounds like the perfect size to continue learning on - big enough that you can land it safely in no wind/crosswind/downwind but responsive enough that you can have fun with it. QuoteFrom my perspective the real difference between Spectre 170 and Stiletto 150 or Nitro 150 is in the toggle control range. You just use less of toggle input to make a controlled turn. How do those canopies react to riser input compared to your current main? If you don't know, imho you're not ready to go smaller than the 150's you've been demoing - you've still got a lot to learn. QuoteThe second question I ask because I’m afraid that changing to 150 will bring little performance/speed gain and I will not see any difference. To alleviate that fear I'd suggest going with a used 150 whatever. Should you decide in 50 jumps that it isn't "enough" you can resell it for the same price you paid and buy something smaller. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #7 October 4, 2005 QuoteRemember that we don't pick our canopy size for when everything goes right, we pick our canopy size for when everything goes wrong. Very good advise to anyone looking to downsize. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snafuhere 0 #8 October 4, 2005 QuoteWell with nearly 300 jumps I doubt he regularly talks to "his instructors" anymore I do. And I am trying to make an informed decision. Thanks a lot for all the input here. And yes, I used front risers on all those 150s. I was also pointed towards Crossfire 139. This would be loaded 1.4, the minimum recommended load for this canopy. As far as I understand the advice I got so far, Spectre 135 would not give me the flare that Crossfire 139 would. A lot of good publicity around Icarus. Sadly, I cannot demo Crossfire... https://www.facebook.com/1skydive/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thepollster 0 #9 October 4, 2005 QuoteI was also pointed towards Crossfire 139. This would be loaded 1.4, the minimum recommended load for this canopy. As far as I understand the advice I got so far, Spectre 135 would not give me the flare that Crossfire 139 would. Those are two very different canopies. Without knowing you, based on your jump numbers and largish downsize, I would go with the Spectre. I have flown a Spectre 135 loaded a little heavier than you, and it had plenty of lift. It will swoop nicely with proper inputs (though not as far as most 9-cells) while still maintaining the good characteristics you like of the Spectre. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #10 October 4, 2005 Quote Two questions: 1) Is Spectre 135 havily loded @ 1.47 ? The Stiletto was originally placarded at 1.3 pounds/square foot for expert skydivers. That wing loading is no lower now than it was ten years ago. _All_ canopies are heavily loaded at 1.5 pounds/square foot. Quote 2) Is there a real difference in handling between 170 and 150 ? There's a huge difference when things go wrong, you're landing down wind, you're at a high density altitude, etc. Quote The second question I ask because I’m afraid that changing to 150 will bring little performance/speed gain and I will not see any difference. It will be plenty fast when flown harder. Once you get away from straight in approaches I don't think 1.5 is too much slower than 1.7. Buy a used 150, put a couple hundred jumps on it, sell it for what you paid if you got a good deal (or $200 less if you didn't), and then buy something else. Quote Any comments on that? It's a bad idea to change shapes and sizes at the same time because both the added responsiveness and added speed can get you in trouble. It's a bad idea to change down more than a size at once. The change between canopy sizes is not perceptually linear. It's a bad idea to downsize faster than Brian Germain's 1.0 + .1/100 jumps formula. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
avenfoto 0 #11 October 5, 2005 QuoteFor example, I don't notice much difference between a 230 and a 210, but I do notice a big difference between a 150 and a 135. its a percentage thing... 20 sq feet is x% of 230 and 15 sq ft is y % of 150 y is generally > than x.... (or am i wrong?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #12 October 5, 2005 one is .913, the other .9. Not very different. But the change in wingloading is greater as you go down by equal increments. exit weight 210- 230 - .913 210 - 1.0 150 - 1.4 135 - 1.56 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #13 October 5, 2005 QuoteBuy a used 150, put a couple hundred jumps on it, sell it for what you paid if you got a good deal (or $200 less if you didn't), and then buy something else. "Losing" $200 on an interim downsizing canopy is an awesome deal compared to breaking your leg. Heck, "losing" $1,000 (e.g. half the value of a brand new canopy) in the resale is still an awesome deal compared to breaking your leg - even if you don't end up needing surgery, just a cast, and even if you have insurance that covers 99% of the cost. So, I don't want to tell you "don't downsize two steps at once at just under 300 jumps experience from a tapered square at 1.15 pounds / square foot to a tapered square at 1.5 pounds / square foot because you'll break your leg, which sucks, and you'll lose four months of jumping and get fat and have to go through physical therapy", because that might not happen to you like it did to me. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
