leroydb 0 #1 March 11, 2009 I preface this by saying that I do not want to upset or ruffle anyones feathers. I am just posing the follow question as a devils advocate. I would appreciate some thought out replies, even by some "law-dogs." NOTE: I quote a real event, but speak in a "what if" manner. =================== I posted this isI know this was a skydiver incident, but want to approach the "why" as it relates to B.A.S.E.. This is the QUOTE from DZ: QuoteJohnson said King was "very calm and embarrassed, he knew the danger he was in." Asked if Brattleboro was going to send King a bill for his rescue, a trend in many communities for feats of derring-do and carelessness, Johnson rejected it forcefully. "Absolutely not," he said. "He's been through enough." Devils Advocate here... So a skydiver is given a reprieve for a rescue bill, whereas some BASE jumpers are not. Ok, I realize that the jumper was possibly doing a legal jump, but what if he was jumping a canopy he was not pro rated for? "If" he was jumping a canopy he wasn't rated for, how does charging a BASE jumper for a rescue for a non-legal jump differ. All things being equal, some would tend to think that the skyjumper should get charged a rescue bill. So what is the determining factor in deciding who has to repay a rescue bill or not? I am not even throwing in the idea that there are PLENTY of things that our rescue personnel do that people should repay, but it seems only certain things are recouped.Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lippy 918 #2 March 11, 2009 IIRC, the jumper in your post was doing a solicited demo into an arranged event. How often is that the case with BASE? *Nothing against BASE people at all here, but it's apples and oranges.I got nuthin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #3 March 11, 2009 Agreed, but what if the jumper was not using a canopy he was "pro rated" for? Doesn't that make his jump less than legal? This makes apples and oranges more like 2 apples...Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #4 March 11, 2009 I don't see your point. This is one example. I'm sure not every base jumper has been charged for their rescues either. When a base jumper goes into wires in front of a crowd of spectators and makes national news, they probably deserve a freebie rescue too. What's the pro rating have to do with anything? Did the demo require a pro rating? I don't think he's pro rated. He's not "rated" on any canopy. As long as the demo didn't require the rating, what's your point? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #5 March 11, 2009 I was making the analogy or comparison that "IF" the jump was not technically legal due to not complying with FAA requirements, THEN how would this differ from a BASE jump (oe enter other sport) where you would need a rescue and were charged a bill? Basically saying that if a BASE jump (oe enter other sport) wasn't legal, AND they were charged a rescure bill, why wouldn't a skydiver on a "non legal" jump be charged a rescue bill? This is all theortical in nature of course. I am talking in general "what if's" and not specifically about the actuall jumper.Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #6 March 11, 2009 A demo jumper is an invited guest, and is treated as such, even if they screw up. A BASE jumper is a criminal trespasser, and they get treated as such, especially when they screw up. Sorry if that pisses you off. I didn't make the world, I just live in it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #7 March 11, 2009 No, not pissed off at all.... I just posed a disscussion question , thats all. How about this though. Now, you do realize that there are BASE jumps that are legal right? Occasionally these jumps do require rescue. How do you think this changes the posed question? 1. Say the BASE jump was a legal one and got hurt needing rescue. 2. Say the Skydive was a legal one and got hurt needing rescue. Would this change anything? Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #8 March 11, 2009 Quote Would this change anything? Of course.Got any real world examples? Have all your BASE jumps been legal? All my skydives have been. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #9 March 11, 2009 Quote Quote Would this change anything? Of course.Got any real world examples? Have all your BASE jumps been legal? All my skydives have been. We are not talking about you or me here. But, congratulations on your perfect skydiving record though, seriously very admirable! Please, You seem to be on a higher "plane" of intelligence. Do not come at me with your seemingly attack'ish attitude. I just posed a question that I prefaced. Maybe I would have been better off making a story up instead of using a real situation that I asked a "what if" question to. Bottom line is that it seems that even if a base jumper or skydiver on a legal jump gets hurt, the skydiver is more likely to not have to repay a rescure bill. Not that i have to worry... I have "insurance."Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #10 March 11, 2009 Quote Quote Would this change anything? Of course.Got any real world examples? A cliff strike rescue in Moab, a bridge strike in TF. MY 2 cents is that bot the illegal jumper or the legal jumper in EITHER sport is completely responsible for their actions including the cost of a rescue. If the rescuing agency decides to take pity on a guy and can afford to absorb the cost of the rescue, then bonus for the jumper.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtnesbitt 0 #11 March 11, 2009 Actually, the majority of most base rescues are from legal jumps in Moab."If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #12 March 11, 2009 Quote Bottom line is that it seems that even if a base jumper or skydiver on a legal jump gets hurt, the skydiver is more likely to not have to repay a rescure bill. Not that i have to worry... I have "insurance." Well maybe a few might have been through the clouds.I know you feel that a Base jumper is more likely to be charged with rescue than a skydiver, but do you have any proof? Legal is legal, bandit is not. BASE jumpers get more respect in Europe and other parts of the world than the U.S. I believe that is true. But what of Base jumpers doing it legally, as in Idaho Falls or West Virginia on bridge day? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #13 March 11, 2009 There was a legal one in the UK the other week after he had a wall strike. Then again we dont pay rescue anyway in the UK for anything. 1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #14 March 11, 2009 Just clarify...you don't need a PRO to do a demo, or for that matter be a member of the USPA to still do a legal demo. What the USPA and PRO rating does is make it easier to get the paperwork through, and obtain affordable 3rd party liability insurance. The only thing that would happen if you did a demo on a canopy your were not 'rated' on, is possibly void the insurance. And to address your other issue, I do know a demo jumper that was charged for a ladder truck rescue following a bad choice of landing spots during a legal demo...the situation you are using as an illustration is merely a small town giving a guy a break. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #15 March 11, 2009 Does anyone think the higher risk of base jumps, including limited canopy time and closer proximity to bad terrain and obstacles increases the likelihood of needing rescue? Perhaps these factors weigh into the rescuing agencies minds when they decide whether or not to charge. I don't know. I'd like to try some BASE jumps. I just can't get a kitchen pass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #16 March 11, 2009 Of all the things to worry about ! Is your life that dull ? smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #17 March 11, 2009 I'd like to try some BASE jumps. I just can't get a kitchen pass. I hear ya brother! I did some B.A.S.E. jumping 'back in the day', the kids came along and the wife made me promise to quit until the kids were gone... I keep throwin' 'em out, she keeps bringing 'em back! *all I need is an "A" for my number!! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #18 March 11, 2009 QuoteBottom line is that it seems that even if a BASE jumper or skydiver on a legal jump gets hurt, the skydiver is more likely to not have to repay a rescure bill. What evidence do you have of this? The municipality for which I'm an elected official doesn't try to recover rescue costs from anyone at the moment. Car accident, heart attack, airplane crash, or even skydiver. Nothing much 'baseable' in town but not that either. Some municipalities have chosen to try to recover rescue costs rather than put the burden on their citizens at large. Some have a mixed policy. But find me a policy that says base jumpers pay and skydivers don't. It's more likely that the municipality where base jumping is occuring has decided to charge base jumpers and doesn't have any skydiving activity and the municipality that has skydiving activity and doesn't charge for rescue doesn't have base jumping. You can not compare experience across municipalities. Most will be deciding this issue on a global basis and it will vary from municipality to municipality. You've tried to make it a legal/non-legal jump thing. Some places DO try to recover the costs associated with emergency response caused by ANY illegal activity. You need to prove your premis before you ask if it is reasonable. I believe your assuming bias where there very well not be any. There MAY be between legal and illegal and it will be codified.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #19 March 11, 2009 Are you serious? This is just a thread on an internet site.... Is your life so dull you have to comment on (in your words) "how dull mine is?" My life is never dull... making soldiers out of civilians is never DULL. lol much loveLeroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #20 March 11, 2009 QuoteJust clarify...you don't need a PRO to do a demo, or for that matter be a member of the USPA to still do a legal demo. ... That clarifies some things for sure... I assumed that jumps that needed a pro rating delt with the FAA through USPA. Now I know. Pro rating is done through the USPA only. Hit me up for an "A" jump if you are ever in MOLeroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #21 March 11, 2009 >>A BASE jumper is a criminal trespasser, and they get treated as such, especially when they screw up.I'm not a criminal. It's the system that's criminal! Okay, except for maybe that bank job with Airtwardo . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,088 #22 March 11, 2009 >So what is the determining factor in deciding who has to repay a >rescue bill or not? 1) Whether his jump involved a crime (trespass, breaking and entering) 2) Whether or not the jumper is a dick about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #23 March 11, 2009 Quote [ That clarifies some things for sure... I assumed that jumps that needed a pro rating delt with the FAA through USPA. Now I know. Pro rating is done through the USPA only. a PRO rating allows you to pass over a crowd lower and land closer to the crowd. The FAA knows all this and may require PRO ratings if the demo is tight enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #24 March 11, 2009 Quote *all I need is an "A" for my number!! Good lord ... you're in prime location. You could have it tonight if you wanted to. Get the pass, you already know the people and if some odd reason you don't, let me know, You can even pull high if you want to!My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #25 March 11, 2009 Does anyone have an aerial shot of the landing zone he missed after setting up for landing from a few thousand feet in the air?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
