popsjumper 2 #1 September 22, 2005 Food for thought: We have RSLs - both Stevens and Collins Lanyards AADs - several makes and models Altimeters - visual, audible and both analog and digital Pilot shutes - bungie, collapsible and non-collapsible Cutaway handles Reserve handles and more... Every system adds another layer of safety AND another layer of potential for failure. When does so much become TOO much with respect to cost, complexity and that potential for failure?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #2 September 22, 2005 You haven't been jumping to know what simple is. Sometimes I wish for the days of an original Norther Lite or Wonderhog. Harness, flaps, housings and nothing extra. "What the hell is a mud flap, or secondary riser covers, or tuck tabs?" Lets see .... AAD's turn it on and forget for most jumpers. Doesn't affect the jump. (Present swoop circumstances excepted) The rigger takes care of the hard part. Or don't use one. Still a valid (but somewhat hard to justify) choice unless imposed by the DZ. Lots of us have thousands of jumps without an AAD. Altimeters Pick what you like, including none. For experienced/ trained people eyes work. (But not my choice) You don't need to know your TAS or opening altitude if you don't want to. Pilot chutes Haven't kept track but last I knew a plain old PC was standard on most/all rigs. Don't get a collapsable if you want simple. Cutaway handle Would you rather have shot and a half capewells? Of course that would solve the twisted riser hard cutaway. (They had hard cutawyas for other reasons.) Hmmm as I think about it so would the Chrysalis release. The end of the cables wasn't usually in a tape channel. (But they had another issue) Now that we've finally realized that the original hard housings are probably best we're pretty well set. Reserve handle Hmmm, go BASE if you don't want this one. Yes, things are more complicated but most of it can be reduced if you wish and much of it is dealt with on the ground and not in the air.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #3 September 22, 2005 QuoteYou haven't been jumping to know what simple is. First jump - Static line 1977. And you're right...I don't remember ANYTHING that was simple back then. Except maybe the T-10 piloting which for the most part was turn into the wind and hope for the best. Quote Would you rather have shot and a half capewells? My God NO! Capewells and belly reserves is why I only did a few jumps in '77. I was never confident that I could handle EPs if necessary. Quote Yes, things are more complicated but most of it can be reduced if you wish and much of it is dealt with on the ground and not in the air. So true.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #4 September 22, 2005 Quote Cutaway handle ...Would you rather have shot and a half capewells? Of course that would solve the twisted riser hard cutaway... LOL! That's great! I gotta remember that one. Anyway, all of your post, well said. My 2 cents, I do not think rigs are getting too complicated, but I do think manufacturers are trying make new jumpers preceive their systems as "better" and "different" by being a bit "gimmicky". Okay, well, can't fault them for wanting folks to buy their product, but seems to me its starting to cause some to think different rigs, AADs, handles, etc. are "some are better then others" when all are still pretty much the same... hopefully gear/rigs won't start to differ really that much that we go back to the days of borrowed gear, borrowed death. Anyway, popsjumper, keep asking questions about gear and keep learning. Don't be shyed-off by if someone says, "You haven't been jumping long enough." Make decissions based on what you've learned and not on what "some guy at the DZ says". The more knowelege you have in this sport the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #5 September 22, 2005 How about tandem rigs? Having 5-6 handles? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #6 September 22, 2005 Gear was simplest in the late 1980s. The only simplification we have done since then was standardizing on BOC. Everything has gotten more complicated since then. Complication has moved repairs out of the hands of Master Riggers and back to the factories. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #7 September 22, 2005 QuoteGear was simplest in the late 1980s. The only simplification we have done since then was standardizing on BOC. Everything has gotten more complicated since then. Complication has moved repairs out of the hands of Master Riggers and back to the factories. Maybe that's the way the manufacturer's want it? more $$$$ for them. I got a senior rigger back rating so I could do my own minor repairs and pack jobs. Not so sure I want to do more than that. Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #8 September 23, 2005 Jump Shack still uses a minimalist ideal with the Racer. Four flaps, four flaps and three handles and a harness. There is less potential for problems than any other rig I know of. That is not to say that the Racer is the best rig out there, or the safest. There are no such absolutes in this sport. There are, however, devices that add safety in some situations, while adding potential danger in other situations. Knowledge of your gear and keeping your wits about you in an emergency are, IMO, the best safety measures jumpers can take. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #9 September 23, 2005 I actually think rigs have stayed remarkably similar since the 80's. Same releases, despite there being a whole slew of them in the 70's. Same riser arrangement. Same main/reserve arrangement. Same reserve designs for the most part (PC/freebag, PC either internal, external or in between.) Same deployment systems. Same handles. What's changed? -AAD's have gotten more reliable (a biggie) -canopies have gotten faster -harnesses have gotten more comfortable/more reliable -freefall and canopy manuevers have become more demanding of equipment -BOC-throwout has become more of a standard New things: -the Catapult (minor change to reserve PC) -collapsible PC's (more complex, higher performance) -soft reserve handles (pluses and minuses, but not a big change) -skyhook (potentially a big change, but not a change in operation) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #10 September 24, 2005 QuoteComplication has moved repairs out of the hands of Master Riggers and back to the factories. Good point. I hadn't thought of that one... like go look at the BOC on a new Javelin... ... mine will be going back to the factory when the time comes for it to be replaced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #11 September 24, 2005 Quote[L]ook at the BOC on a new Javelin... ... mine will be going back to the factory when the time comes for it to be replaced. Sunpath replaces BOC's the way folks in the field do it: use a very sharp scissors to remove the old one, then sew a new one onto the bottom flap. They don't dissassemble the pack tray from the back pad. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #12 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuote[L]ook at the BOC on a new Javelin... ... mine will be going back to the factory when the time comes for it to be replaced. Sunpath replaces BOC's the way folks in the field do it: use a very sharp scissors to remove the old one, then sew a new one onto the bottom flap. They don't dissassemble the pack tray from the back pad. Mark Interesting... The way it appears to me on a new Jav with a BOC, the BOC pouch is integral to the pack tray, back pad, bottom / left side (flap ?)... but it sounds to me that whey they replace one, they just cut it off and sew the new one onto the bottom flap like we used to "back in the day" when folks with an old right leg strap throw out would have done to their rig when wanting to go BOC. Is that basically what you're saying?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #13 September 26, 2005 Yes. Sunpath installs the original BOC at assembly because it's no trouble and looks better. Their replacement BOCs look like everybody else's originals, like Para-Gear W97765. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #14 September 27, 2005 QuoteYes. Sunpath installs the original BOC at assembly because it's no trouble and looks better. Their replacement BOCs look like everybody else's originals, like Para-Gear W97765. Mark Heck! I can do that!! ... and have. Thanks for the 411. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #15 September 27, 2005 QuoteThanks for the 411. What's a 411? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #16 September 27, 2005 The number for directory inquiries in the bits of the USA I've been to. Used as a slang term for information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #17 September 27, 2005 Quote> What's a 411? The number for directory inquiries in the bits of the USA I've been to. Used as a slang term for information. I thought "buzz" was the hip term to use for "information" these days? Like; "Hey dude, what da buzz?" I get so confused trying to keep up with cool... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #18 September 27, 2005 >Like; "Hey dude, what da buzz? That's so 20th century. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #19 September 27, 2005 Is "wassup" still "in"? I still say "Peace, bro'. What's happenin'?"My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #20 October 4, 2005 See also the thread on G4 dbags... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1851892;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #21 October 6, 2005 QuoteSee also the thread on G4 dbags... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1851892;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Great...now packing too....My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #22 October 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteSee also the thread on G4 dbags... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1851892;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Great...now packing too.... Yeah, sometimes I don't think that my hobby is skydiving. Sometimes I think my hobby is stuffing large pieces of nylon in to small and complicatedly shaped bags... and skydiving is the only interesting way I can come up with to unpack them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #23 October 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteSee also the thread on G4 dbags... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1851892;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread Great...now packing too.... Yeah, sometimes I don't think that my hobby is skydiving. Sometimes I think my hobby is stuffing large pieces of nylon in to small and complicatedly shaped bags... and skydiving is the only interesting way I can come up with to unpack them. I think you just gave me a new sig line full credit will be givenWhy yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
