shropshire 0 #1 February 13, 2009 Sad ... clicky (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrwrong 0 #2 February 13, 2009 Very sad indeed SAS used to have a bunch of those Q400 in traffic until the landing gear started to collapse on touch down (2 or 3 occations in a short period of time). I have done my share of time in that model as a passenger (100+ flights)... Scary... “The sum of intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing.” - George Bernard Shaw He who dies with the most toys, wins..... dudeist skydiver # 19515 Buy quality and cry once! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micduran 0 #3 February 13, 2009 Just watching this on the news. My heart goes out to all the families and friends.Be patient with the faults of others; they have to be patient with yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 37 #4 February 13, 2009 One of the passengers was a 911 widow. She was on her way to Buffalo to remember her husband's birthday and give out a scholarship to a student in his name. That's a lot of sadness for one family. She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #5 February 14, 2009 Possible icing. http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/13/plane.crash.new.york/index.html ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #6 February 14, 2009 My money is on icing. It has all the signs of ice induced loss of control, similar to the crash that killed 8 jumpers and the pilot about a year and a half ago here in Washington.Those Dash 8's are pretty proven planes, though. I'm shocked that it went down like that. They'll have to look at time in icing conditions, speeds, time spent in holding, etc. There was an ATR-42 crash a few years back where low air speeds during holding allowed ice to build on the wings in areas not serviced by deicing boots. Many of you know I'm an air traffic controller at Seattle Center in WA. Currently I have a trainee I'm working with, young man in his late twenties. He was late back from his lunch. Turned out he had a phone call telling him that one of his good friends from high school was the young woman co-piloting the plane, a local woman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #7 February 14, 2009 Nice looking model of a plane. http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/dash8/dash89.html A very sad day indeed . . . ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #8 February 14, 2009 The BB indicated that the de-icing boots had been selected for some time. Does anyone know if Dash-8 icing boots automatically cycle, or are they susceptible to icing over the inflated boot? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #9 February 14, 2009 QuoteNice looking model of a plane. http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/dash8/dash89.html A very sad day indeed . . . I work dozens of those Dash 8-300's daily, very fast turboprop, it can actually keep up with or even overtake B-737's and other jets being flown on econ descents. The big, big brother to our beloved Twin Otter, I often daydream of jumping out of them. I know several folks who fly those daily for a living. My heart goes out the friends and families of those in the crash. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #10 February 14, 2009 QuoteThe big, big brother to our beloved Twin Otter, I often daydream of jumping out of them. My thoughts exactly. Question for you pilots, are there specific conditions that ground prop planes (even turbo-prop ones) that jets can and will continue to fly in? If so, where can I view those specific stats? ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 February 16, 2009 QuoteQuestion for you pilots, are there specific conditions that ground prop planes (even turbo-prop ones) that jets can and will continue to fly in? No, is the quick short answer. The longer answer involved a discussion of different types of icing, levels of intensity, different types of anti icing systems and their effectiveness, and different flight profiles. Without going int lots of boring detail, the larger jets tend to have the more effective systems and fly profiles that keep them out/away from icing conditions for a greater percentage of their flight time. In short it's all about how they are equipped and flown.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #12 February 16, 2009 Prop driven planes have more rapid throttle response than turbojets, and therefore handle low level windshear better than jets. That's one weather phenomenon where they have an advantage. Jets do tend to climb above the icing faster and most have hot wings instead of boots to handle icing. Although aerospace technology is so advanced and reliable as to appear routine, there is still just some weather that is beyond the capability of our aircraft to survive. Detection and avoidance then become the keys to survival. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #13 February 16, 2009 QuoteMy money is on icing. Mine too. Icing happens fast, really fast! By the time a pilot realizes that ice is building it is often too late. At freeway speeds the realization of windshield ice usually occurs just seconds before your car has lost its traction. Ever experience freezing rain in Portland, OR? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #14 February 16, 2009 I think icing also. Back in the day an ATR-42 went down the same way. Icing problems and the crew was using autopilot. Seems as though the AP was working hard to keep the plane flying but was overwhelmed with the problems caused by ice. WHen it automatically shut off it put the pilots way behind the curve. The Dash series even resembles the ATR. IIRC the ATR cannot be flown in icing conditions anymore.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #15 February 16, 2009 QuoteI think icing also. Back in the day an ATR-42 went down the same way. Icing problems and the crew was using autopilot. Seems as though the AP was working hard to keep the plane flying but was overwhelmed with the problems caused by ice. When it automatically shut off it put the pilots way behind the curve. The Dash series even resembles the ATR. IIRC the ATR cannot be flown in icing conditions anymore. That would be my guess too, things didn't really go south until they dropped the gear and set the flaps for approach. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #16 February 16, 2009 According to the wire reports the Dash8 Q400 was knowingly flying in icing conditions with the deicing system operating; this is serious news. It's likely we'll see another icing/deicing experiment over Edwards AFB in California since this is a popular aircraft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #17 February 16, 2009 How do you test the de-icing system? Is it something that you turn on and just get an indicator light, or is there some sort of temp gauge that you get off each wing?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #18 February 16, 2009 QuoteEver experience freezing rain in Portland, OR? Funny you should mention that. My Seattle Center airspace surrounds Portland Approach Control, and the Columbia River gorge East of Portland is infamous for freezing rain. I've taken more than a few urgent pireps (pilot reports) over the years for severe icing there and along the West slope of the Cascades. It's a convergence area of several factors that cause airborne icing. I've heard of the lake effect in the Buffalo area. I'm guessing they had a strong West wind that night and a lot of moisture coming off the lake and being lifted by rising terrain, a perfect recipe for icing. It's similar to what we get along the West slope in WA, where the weathermen call it the "Western Washington Icing Machine." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #19 February 16, 2009 during the DAYtime hours on that day weather was REAL rough. cold wet,,, winds ABOVE 45 mph gusts over 60...the night was damp, cold freezing drizzle... That Dash 8 has a HUGE Tee-Tail (think King Air 200 series, but BIGGER ). does the Horizontal Stabilizer also have de ice boots???.. first thing i mentioned to Nancy the morning when it was on the news show on tv at 5:30 Am, was " i bet when they added flaps, in preparation for landing, they slowed down just enough to hit an above normal stall speed". That, plus the low altitude, made for a nasty situation. Reports today say the plane pancaked onto the house, meaning (to me) that they almost had it pulled out...making it EVEN tougher to take...Buffalo NY is a resilient and strong community. They have weathered many many a rough situation.... this one will be yet another challenge to the citys' Integrity..May all who are involved, recover.... Peace,,,, to all the souls on board and to the family who own the Home. jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #20 February 16, 2009 QuoteHow do you test the de-icing system? In a nutshell, an aerial tanker like a KC-10 is filled with colored water, which is discharged at freezing altitudes. The test aircraft is outfitted with cameras and sensors, and a camera equipped aircraft maneuvers about the test aircraft's exterior. They ice the wings to failure (loss of lift), and the aircraft descends back into warmer air where the ice melts. The tests are repeated with the deicing system activated to see if it performs properly in known icing conditions. The ATR tests showed that its deicing boots didn't reach far enough back along the wing's chord; a design failure for an all weather aircraft. The ATR fleet was relocated to warmer regions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #21 February 16, 2009 But is it part of their preflight pmcs, or ever checked at all any time after its manufactured?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #22 February 16, 2009 QuoteBut is it part of their preflight pmcs, or ever checked at all any time after its manufactured? You get an indicator light when it is turned on.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #23 February 17, 2009 QuoteBut is it part of their preflight pmcs, or ever checked at all any time after its manufactured? Optional deicing systems are subject to routine maintenance, same goes for auto-pilot / flight director systems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #24 February 17, 2009 QuoteMy Seattle Center airspace surrounds Portland Approach Control, and the Columbia River gorge East of Portland is infamous for freezing rain. Hi John, long time, no see. The freezing rain around Portland easily top 'em all in the Pacific Northwest. Spokane is bad, but like you say, Portland is exceptional. Back in the seventies I watched cars and trucks pile into each other for about 20-minutes, even a highway patrol too! It was surreal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #25 May 11, 2009 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124200193256505099.html The captain of a commuter plane that crashed Feb. 12 near Buffalo, N.Y., had flunked numerous flight tests during his career and was never adequately taught how to respond to the emergency that led to the airplane's fatal descent, according to people close to the investigation. All 49 people aboard were killed, as well as one person in a house below, when the plane crashed just a few miles short of the Buffalo airport en route from Newark, N.J. The Bombardier Q400 turboprop in the crash, which will be the subject of a National Transportation Safety Board hearing Tuesday, was operated by commuter carrier Colgan Air Inc., a division of Pinnacle Airlines Corp. Capt. Marvin Renslow had never been properly trained by the company to respond to a warning system designed to prevent the plane from going into a stall, according to people familiar with the investigation. As the speed slowed to a dangerous level, setting off the stall-prevention system, he did the opposite of the proper procedure, which led to the crash, these people said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
