kallend 2,146 #1 August 10, 2010 QuoteQuote>OTOH, collisions are 100% avoidable. No, they're not. While you can greatly reduce the odds of a collision, you cannot avoid them 100% any more than you can avoid a malfunction through careful packing and maintenance. Thus, as in many areas of skydiving, it pays to both prevent the problem to begin with, and to learn about how to deal with it if it does occur.I concur. Remember, a canopy collision can happen well before the pattern. Should a jumper in another group accidentally track in your direction while you're facing away from them, you might get a surprise visitor from above shortly after opening. It's not entirely unusual. That shouldn't happen with proper exit separation - it IS avoidable.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
huge 0 #2 August 10, 2010 QuoteThat shouldn't happen with proper exit separation - it IS avoidable.How do you ensure that the group exiting after you will give you proper exit separation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #3 August 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteThat shouldn't happen with proper exit separation - it IS avoidable.How do you ensure that the group exiting after you will give you proper exit separation? Safety is everyone's business. We ALL have to do our part. If everyone does what they are supposed to do, collisions won't happen.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iluvtofly 0 #4 August 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteThat shouldn't happen with proper exit separation - it IS avoidable.How do you ensure that the group exiting after you will give you proper exit separation? Safety is everyone's business. We ALL have to do our part. If everyone does what they are supposed to do, collisions won't happen. This is not a perfect world. The same can be said for car accidents. If EVERYONE paid attention to what they were doing while driving there would be no car accidents. Unfortuantely it's the same way in skydiving. You have new people who don't know any better, cocky people who think they're above having to listen to the safety regulations and people who are just plain stupid. So until we live in a perfect world where everyone does everything perfectly shit is going to happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #5 August 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThat shouldn't happen with proper exit separation - it IS avoidable.How do you ensure that the group exiting after you will give you proper exit separation? Safety is everyone's business. We ALL have to do our part. If everyone does what they are supposed to do, collisions won't happen. This is not a perfect world. The same can be said for car accidents. If EVERYONE paid attention to what they were doing while driving there would be no car accidents. Unfortuantely it's the same way in skydiving. You have new people who don't know any better, cocky people who think they're above having to listen to the safety regulations and people who are just plain stupid. So until we live in a perfect world where everyone does everything perfectly shit is going to happen. Context is important here. In the thread from which this was spun-off, the comparison was of collisions with malfunctions. Collisions ARE avoidable if everyone behaves correctly. Malfunctions can still occur with a perfectly packed parachute and proper deployment with good body position. The fact that we seem to have a spate of collision fatalities in the past 2 years, whose causes are either poor separation on breakoff or poor pattern/landing discipline suggests that we CAN do something about collisions, since both of these are under the control of the skydivers.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #6 August 10, 2010 >Collisions ARE avoidable if everyone behaves correctly. And malfunctions are avoidable if the parachute functions correctly. Unfortunately, neither people nor parachutes are infallible. >The fact that we seem to have a spate of collision fatalities in the past > 2 years, whose causes are either poor separation on breakoff or poor > pattern/landing discipline suggests that we CAN do something about > collisions, since both of these are under the control of the skydivers. Agreed. A nd after seeing the results actions taken after collisions, we can also do something about keeping skydivers alive after they do collide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iluvtofly 0 #7 August 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThat shouldn't happen with proper exit separation - it IS avoidable.How do you ensure that the group exiting after you will give you proper exit separation? Safety is everyone's business. We ALL have to do our part. If everyone does what they are supposed to do, collisions won't happen. This is not a perfect world. The same can be said for car accidents. If EVERYONE paid attention to what they were doing while driving there would be no car accidents. Unfortuantely it's the same way in skydiving. You have new people who don't know any better, cocky people who think they're above having to listen to the safety regulations and people who are just plain stupid. So until we live in a perfect world where everyone does everything perfectly shit is going to happen. Context is important here. In the thread from which this was spun-off, the comparison was of collisions with malfunctions. Collisions ARE avoidable if everyone behaves correctly. Malfunctions can still occur with a perfectly packed parachute and proper deployment with good body position. The fact that we seem to have a spate of collision fatalities in the past 2 years, whose causes are either poor separation on breakoff or poor pattern/landing discipline suggests that we CAN do something about collisions, since both of these are under the control of the skydivers. That reply was actually posted to the other thread. I've been reading it everyday since I was at the boogie mentioned. All I'm stating is that there's only so much you can do to protect yourself from a collision. There is no guarantee that some other yahoo isn't going to run into you. Question for you...have you every participated in everything where every single person there behaved correctly??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 79 #8 August 10, 2010 THIS IS TO ALL IN GENERAL, NOT ANY ONE INDIVIDUAL. As long as we allow hook turns in the predictable landing pattern, there will be deaths by landing. Even innocent bystanders die. The solution is really simple. DEMAND that the USPA require all DZs to enforce a predictable pattern landing. Most of these deaths will stop. If the FAA can mandate a predictable landing pattern for airplanes, we can do the same for parachutes. Until then this is just lip service and you are not serious about fixing the problem.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #9 August 10, 2010 Quote>Collisions ARE avoidable if everyone behaves correctly. And malfunctions are avoidable if the parachute functions correctly. Unfortunately, neither people nor parachutes are infallible. It's not a matter of fallibility, it's a matter of attitude. Canopies don't have attitude, but people who spiral or hook through the traffic pattern do. I don't think anyone ever threw a 540 in the pattern without intending to.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #10 August 10, 2010 >Canopies don't have attitude, but people who spiral or hook through >the traffic pattern do. Agreed. Unfortunately, just having the right attitude does not prevent accidents either (although it can surely help.) When you find yourself open 10 feet from another jump under canopy, facing them, attitude will not help much (although quick reactions and knowing what to do after a collision might indeed help.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #11 August 10, 2010 >DEMAND that the USPA require all DZs to enforce a predictable >pattern landing. Most of these deaths will stop. There is now a requirement in the group member pledge that requires DZO's to separate standard and HP landing patterns. If you ask a DZO to do this, and he refuses, remind him that he promised to do just that when he signed the group member pledge. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #12 August 10, 2010 QuoteCanopies don't have attitude, but people who spiral or hook through the traffic pattern do. I don't think anyone ever threw a 540 in the pattern without intending to. People chasing the wind sock or doing big S turns on final can have attitude too - it's not just swoopers. Try telling an old fart that he's wrong for doing in the pattern what he's been doing in the pattern for the past 25 years.. the reaction is going to be much the same as you'll get telling a young pup that he's wrong for doing a 540 in the pattern. In a perfect world, if we were to all actively avoid collisions at all times, it's fairly likely that we wouldn't have any. But this is the real world - the attitudes and lack of training/education that keep all of us from doing so aren't likely to go away soon. So it makes sense to not only talk about how to avoid collisions but also to talk about what to do if a canopy collision happens to you/me - as much sense as it does to talk about what to do if the engine goes out on the plane or other emergency procedures. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 79 #13 August 10, 2010 Quote>DEMAND that the USPA require all DZs to enforce a predictable >pattern landing. Most of these deaths will stop. There is now a requirement in the group member pledge that requires DZO's to separate standard and HP landing patterns. If you ask a DZO to do this, and he refuses, remind him that he promised to do just that when he signed the group member pledge. The term separate is very ambiguous and not the same thing as a formal landing pattern. Z-Hills has a swoop pond where EVERYONE must walk to get from the LZ back to the packing area. It is separate but in the path of everyone walking back to pack! Why wouldn't a formal landing pattern work. Just like the FAA enforces at every airport. Even the ones where we skydive!Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #14 August 10, 2010 QuoteQuoteCanopies don't have attitude, but people who spiral or hook through the traffic pattern do. I don't think anyone ever threw a 540 in the pattern without intending to. People chasing the wind sock or doing big S turns on final can have attitude too - it's not just swoopers. Try telling an old fart that he's wrong for doing in the pattern what he's been doing in the pattern for the past 25 years.. the reaction is going to be much the same as you'll get telling a young pup that he's wrong for doing a 540 in the pattern. In a perfect world, if we were to all actively avoid collisions at all times, it's fairly likely that we wouldn't have any. But this is the real world - the attitudes and lack of training/education that keep all of us from doing so aren't likely to go away soon. So it makes sense to not only talk about how to avoid collisions but also to talk about what to do if a canopy collision happens to you/me - as much sense as it does to talk about what to do if the engine goes out on the plane or other emergency procedures. Judging by how many highly skilled and experienced skydivers have died following canopy collisions, I doubt anyone actually knows a universally applicable procedure that can deal with the myriad scenarios that a collision can involve. Or do you want us to memorize and practice a different procedure for every different collision scenario? What EXACTLY would you recommend as the emergency procedure if hit from behind and entangled at 75ft agl? On the whole I think our time is far better spent teaching good breakoff, tracking and pattern work, since the hard data suggest that is where the problems lie.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #15 August 10, 2010 Quote>Canopies don't have attitude, but people who spiral or hook through >the traffic pattern do. Agreed. Unfortunately, just having the right attitude does not prevent accidents either (although it can surely help.) When you find yourself open 10 feet from another jump under canopy, facing them, attitude will not help much (although quick reactions and knowing what to do after a collision might indeed help.) OK, What EXACTLY would you recommend as the emergency procedure if hit from behind and entangled with a collapsed canopy at 75ft agl?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #16 August 10, 2010 >OK, What EXACTLY would you recommend as the emergency procedure >if hit from behind and entangled with a collapsed canopy at 75ft agl? If you are on the top and your canopy is still flying: Make one attempt to clear the entanglement. If the landing will be survivable, steer as best as possible towards the softest landing spot you can identify, keeping in mind that the person below will be hitting first. If the landing will not be survivable, deploy the reserve. Do not cut away if below 1000 feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #17 August 10, 2010 Quote>OK, What EXACTLY would you recommend as the emergency procedure >if hit from behind and entangled with a collapsed canopy at 75ft agl? If you are on the top and your canopy is still flying: Make one attempt to clear the entanglement. If the landing will be survivable, steer as best as possible towards the softest landing spot you can identify, keeping in mind that the person below will be hitting first. If the landing will not be survivable, deploy the reserve. Do not cut away if below 1000 feet. 75ft IS below 1000ft! You have 3 seconds...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #18 August 10, 2010 >75ft IS below 1000ft! Agreed. So the answer is "don't cut away." >You have 3 seconds... Yep. So you do the best you can in the time you have. Or I could suppose you could just wait to die. Choose what you wish to teach your students. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #19 August 10, 2010 Quoten the whole I think our time is far better spent teaching good breakoff, tracking and pattern work I think the majority of our time is better spent on those items, but shit happens, even when the people involved are heads up jumpers. Let's anticipate the worst and plan and train for survival. I have a personal interest in this subject. Someone who took one of our canopy control courses was involved in a post-breakoff canopy collision shortly after. It's possible that at least he could have landed safely under a reserve had we included "what to do if" in the course he took. Every canopy course we teach now includes this discussion, and I strongly believe that every skydiver needs this information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #20 August 11, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThat shouldn't happen with proper exit separation - it IS avoidable.How do you ensure that the group exiting after you will give you proper exit separation? Safety is everyone's business. We ALL have to do our part. If everyone does what they are supposed to do, collisions won't happen. This is not a perfect world. The same can be said for car accidents. If EVERYONE paid attention to what they were doing while driving there would be no car accidents. True. So why the argument against what John said? And what does "not a perfect world" have to do with his statement? You do what you are supposed to do and collisions won't happen. Collisions happen because somebody was NOT doing what they were supposed to do. Just that simple. QuoteUnfortuantely it's the same way in skydiving. You have new people who don't know any better, cocky people who think they're above having to listen to the safety regulations and people who are just plain stupid. So until we live in a perfect world where everyone does everything perfectly shit is going to happen. Now, if you want to discuss a different point such as the causes of collision incidents, fine...carry on.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #21 August 11, 2010 Quote Quote That shouldn't happen with proper exit separation - it IS avoidable. How do you ensure that the group exiting after you will give you proper exit separation? - Be the last one out? My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #22 August 11, 2010 Quote>75ft IS below 1000ft! Agreed. So the answer is "don't cut away." >You have 3 seconds... Yep. So you do the best you can in the time you have. Or I could suppose you could just wait to die. Choose what you wish to teach your students. So WHAT are you going to teach people to do in this scenario? "Do your best" is not particularly specific. I found 14 fatal incidents (some double fatalities, so more than 14 deaths) in the database. 10 of them were low altitude. ALL OF THEM could have been prevented with proper pattern and landing discipline. How many would have been saved with better instruction on what to do after a low altitude collision? Roger was an outstanding, skillful, current skydiver. He wasn't able to deal with a low altitude collision that was 100% avoidable.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #23 August 11, 2010 QuoteIf the FAA can mandate a predictable landing pattern for airplanes, we can do the same for parachutes. Until then this is just lip service and you are not serious about fixing the problem. Airplanes still have collisions in the pattern, no matter what rules the FAA has established. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 79 #24 August 11, 2010 QuoteQuoteIf the FAA can mandate a predictable landing pattern for airplanes, we can do the same for parachutes. Until then this is just lip service and you are not serious about fixing the problem. Airplanes still have collisions in the pattern, no matter what rules the FAA has established. At least there is a plan. Right now there are no rules, just an informal agreement that changes with the wind!Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #25 August 11, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf the FAA can mandate a predictable landing pattern for airplanes, we can do the same for parachutes. Until then this is just lip service and you are not serious about fixing the problem. Airplanes still have collisions in the pattern, no matter what rules the FAA has established. At least there is a plan. Right now there are no rules, just an informal agreement that changes with the wind! I guess you missed my point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
