H2O ...on the Moon..Yes or No????

[quade 4]

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Ok, can someone explain to me why its so expensive to transport water to the moon? $10,000 a liter? REALLY?? . . . .What am I missing here?

Same reason a jump ticket costs what it does.

HP = $

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 2]

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...the Saturn 5's used for Apollo had to be so much larger than the Atlas rockets used to orbit (for example) the Gemini spacecraft.

I hate to be a picky space geek, but that would be:
Atlas - Mercury spacecraft
Titan II - Gemini spacecraft

Not to mention that Apollo 7 used the Saturn 1B, not the Saturn 5.
Hey, he only said "Apollo", he didn't say "to the moon".

[diablopilot 2]

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But once you get past earths gravity, then the gravity of the moon would be pulling you toward it, which would be a benefit, since thats where youre going?

Yes, some, but:

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This delta vee comes from engine burns, and thus the more delta-vee you need the more fuel you need (and the bigger the spacecraft.) That's why the Saturn 5's used for Apollo had to be so much larger than the Atlas rockets used to orbit (for example) the Gemini spacecraft.

And I want to point out that continuing Bilvon's statement, the more fuel you need, the more you have to life out of the gravity well, the more fuel you need to lift the added weight of the fuel out of the gravity well.

You can see that payloads quickly shrink, and diminishing returns approach.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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But once you get past earths gravity, then the gravity of the moon would be pulling you toward it, which would be a benefit, since thats where youre going?

Yes, some, but:

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This delta vee comes from engine burns, and thus the more delta-vee you need the more fuel you need (and the bigger the spacecraft.) That's why the Saturn 5's used for Apollo had to be so much larger than the Atlas rockets used to orbit (for example) the Gemini spacecraft.

And I want to point out that continuing Bilvon's statement, the more fuel you need, the more you have to life out of the gravity well, the more fuel you need to lift the added weight of the fuel out of the gravity well.

You can see that payloads quickly shrink, and diminishing returns approach.

And in addition to that the fuel you need to slow down when you reach the moon is more weight that needs fuel to lift it out of the gravity well.
Look at how big the Saturn V was, and how big the lunar lander was (yes they took the command module and capsule both ways too).

To add it up (backwards)on a one way trip, you need the fuel to slow the spacecraft down at the moon, plus the fuel to get the spacecraft (and the fuel to slow down) from earth orbit to the moon, plus the fuel to get the spacecraft (and all the other fuel) into orbit.

It adds up fast. To the point that speeding up and then slowing down doesn't double the amount of fuel needed just to speed up, it squares it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[billvon 3,120]

>And in addition to that the fuel you need to slow down when you reach
> the moon is more weight that needs fuel to lift it out of the gravity well.

Yep. Which is why a lot of reference Mars missions do not carry their return fuel all the way to Mars; they make it there. It saves a _lot_ on the size of the vehicle needed to perform the mission. Such missions can be launched with smaller launchers, like the proposed Ares V.

[jimmytavino 16]

Yes. i recall hearing that water in the form of ice has been verified on the moon... which was one of the reasons why i was hoping to hear an "Affirmative !" on this test...i think that the rocket and the spacecraft which followed it. had both ALReady accomplished some sort of 'survey mission' or other task...

So it made sense to me that " disposing" of the rocket etc,,,could at least result in one final 'exploratory test'...I liked the idea of the explosion, followed by the probe, flying though it...Not sure how long the probe would last, or how thorough an assessment it could have done???. was the probe still under control??? was it 'flying'???
or was it simply picking up readings, as it too, headed for it's own personal crater !!???
in that case.... there wouldn't have been much time to "send back signals".

perhaps my ignorance of such technical things, allows me to think it takes hours,,, instead of seconds,,,to send data..

Fact is,,,, i had heard Nothing either way...
,,
Water,,, anywhere is a big deal... it is life giving.....

i hope it's on the moon, and easy to get to. thanks for all the 'escape velocity science' posts,,, interesting stuff.
How long would it take, to receive, interpret and verify these findings>>> days ? weeks??? maybe we'll hear something soon.


jt

[billvon 3,120]

>was the probe still under control? was it 'flying'?

Yes. The 'sheperding spacecraft' followed the Centaur about four minutes behind it, so it had four minutes to look at the results of the impact.

>perhaps my ignorance of such technical things, allows me to think it takes
> hours,,, instead of seconds,,,to send data..

Data transmission can be done very rapidly given enough power and high enough gain antennas. Since the transmission only had to last four minutes - and since draining the battery didn't matter (it was, after all, going to be destroyed) - they had all the power they needed.

[birdshit 0]

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Ok, can someone explain to me why its so expensive to transport water to the moon? $10,000 a liter? REALLY?? . . . .What am I missing here?

Look at it like a jump ticket to 250,000 miles. It costs a lot of rocket fuel and rocket ship to move that heavy stuff to altitude. If they coudl take it from the moon it would provide water, oxygen (electrolysis), and hydrogen for rocket fuel (electrolysis).

edit to add: yes Im a dipshit that didnt read the whole thread before replying...

here is the website for the mission: www.nasa.gov/lcross

[mutumbo 0]

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Ok, can someone explain to me why its so expensive to transport water to the moon? $10,000 a liter? REALLY?? . . . .What am I missing here?

Look at it like a jump ticket to 250,000 miles. It costs a lot of rocket fuel and rocket ship to move that heavy stuff to altitude. If they coudl take it from the moon it would provide water, oxygen (electrolysis), and hydrogen for rocket fuel (electrolysis).

edit to add: yes Im a dipshit that didnt read the whole thread before replying...

here is the website for the mission: www.nasa.gov/lcross

Hey, either way you did mention a few things that hadnt been brought up, cool.

Thanatos340(on landing rounds)--
Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet.

[riddler 0]

I'm guessing anything as old as the moon, with that much of a gravitational well, would attract at least a few bits of passing comets. I'm sure they will find some evidence of water there, but I doubt it will be significant enough quantity to harvest - we'll have to take water with us.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Tuna-Salad 0]

not real sure if this is the right place or not, but has anyone considered that everything "we" as the human race know could be wrong? Think about it, the laws of physics are based on what we know on earth, everything is based on what we know here with little comparison of anything else.

Millions of my potential children died on your daughters' face last night.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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not real sure if this is the right place or not, but has anyone considered that everything "we" as the human race know could be wrong? Think about it, the laws of physics are based on what we know on earth, everything is based on what we know here with little comparison of anything else.

Not really likely.

Remember, Newton's gravitational calculations were based on his observations of the movements of the other planets in the solar system.

And all the space probes NASA sent out followed all the known laws of physics.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[davjohns 1]

You know what they say....$78 million here - $78 million there - before long, you're talking about real money.

I think I would rather we got our act together on this planet before we start spoiling others. Just me.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Andy9o8 2]

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You know what they say....$78 million here - $78 million there - before long, you're talking about real money.

I think I would rather we got our act together on this planet before we start spoiling others. Just me.

I don't think they're mutually exclusive. The knowledge gained and technology developed is invaluable. Of course, we have to be able to pay for it without short-shrifting other necessities. It's all about balance.

[Beerlight 0]

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You know what they say....$78 million here - $78 million there - before long, you're talking about real money.

I think I would rather we got our act together on this planet before we start spoiling others. Just me.

From what we gain, the budget is really pocket change in the grand scheme. Necessity is the mother of invention. We shall reap plenty from exploration of space. Just hang in there!

[Amazon 7]

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You know what they say....$78 million here - $78 million there - before long, you're talking about real money.

I think I would rather we got our act together on this planet before we start spoiling others. Just me.

From what we gain, the budget is really pocket change in the grand scheme. Necessity is the mother of invention. We shall reap plenty from exploration of space. Just hang in there!

A Phrase from the "Right Stuff" comes to mind. " No bucks, No Buck Rogers"

Just imagine where we could be had we not blown so much money on intraspecies predation.

[Beerlight 0]

Love that movie!

[riddler 0]

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I'm guessing anything as old as the moon, with that much of a gravitational well, would attract at least a few bits of passing comets. I'm sure they will find some evidence of water there, but I doubt it will be significant enough quantity to harvest - we'll have to take water with us.

The latest is that they (NASA) have found a "significant" amount of water. But significant, relative to what? They haven't released estimates about PPM. This smells of typical NASA P.R. - in my experience dealing with them, they were more interested in cheering "mission accomplished" and trying to justify the money spent on each program than in showing scientific data in an objective format.

There's water in rocks in the desert - it's all a matter of what you call significant. If there's enough water that we can harvest it for lunar exploration (and maybe even mine it for fuel), then that really is significant. I have doubts that there's enough there for us to really make use of.

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The argument that the moon is a dry, desolate place no longer holds water.

Secrets the moon has been holding, for perhaps billions of years, are now being revealed to the delight of scientists and space enthusiasts alike.

NASA today opened a new chapter in our understanding of the moon. Preliminary data from the Lunar CRater Observation and Sensing Satellite, or LCROSS, indicates that the mission successfully uncovered water during the Oct. 9, 2009 impacts into the permanently shadowed region of Cabeus cater near the moon’s south pole.

The impact created by the LCROSS Centaur upper stage rocket created a two-part plume of material from the bottom of the crater. The first part was a high angle plume of vapor and fine dust and the second a lower angle ejecta curtain of heavier material. This material has not seen sunlight in billions of years.

"We're unlocking the mysteries of our nearest neighbor and by extension the solar system. It turns out the moon harbors many secrets, and LCROSS has added a new layer to our understanding," said Michael Wargo, chief lunar scientist at NASA Headquarters in Washington.

Scientists have long speculated about the source of vast quantities of hydrogen that have been observed at the lunar poles. The LCROSS findings are shedding new light on the question of water, which could be more widespread and in greater quantity than previously suspected.

Permanently shadowed regions could hold a key to the history and evolution of the solar system, much as an ice core sample taken on Earth reveals ancient data. In addition, water, and other compounds represent potential resources that could sustain future lunar exploration.

Since the impacts, the LCROSS science team has been working almost nonstop analyzing the huge amount of data the spacecraft collected. The team concentrated on data from the satellite's spectrometers, which provide the most definitive information about the presence of water. A spectrometer examines light emitted or absorbed by materials that helps identify their composition.

"We are ecstatic," said Anthony Colaprete, LCROSS project scientist and principal investigator at NASA's Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, Calif. "Multiple lines of evidence show water was present in both the high angle vapor plume and the ejecta curtain created by the LCROSS Centaur impact. The concentration and distribution of water and other substances requires further analysis, but it is safe to say Cabeus holds water."

The team took the known near infrared spectral signatures of water and other materials and compared them to the spectra collected by the LCROSS near infrared spectrometer of the impact.

"We were only able to match the spectra from LCROSS data when we inserted the spectra for water," said Colaprete. "No other reasonable combination of other compounds that we tried matched the observations. The possibility of contamination from the Centaur also was ruled out."

Additional confirmation came from an emission in the ultraviolet spectrum that was attributed to hydroxyl, one product from the break-up of water by sunlight. When atoms and molecules are excited, they release energy at specific wavelengths that are detected by the spectrometers. A similar process is used in neon signs. When electrified, a specific gas will produce a distinct color. The ultraviolet visible spectrometer detected hydroxyl signatures just after impact that are consistent with a water vapor cloud in sunlight.

Data from the other LCROSS instruments are being analyzed for additional clues about the state and distribution of the material at the impact site. The LCROSS science team along with colleagues are poring over the data to understand the entire impact event, from flash to crater, with the final goal being the understanding of the distribution of materials, and in particular volatiles, within the soil at the impact site.

"The full understanding of the LCROSS data may take some time. The data is that rich," said Colaprete. "Along with the water in Cabeus, there are hints of other intriguing substances. The permanently shadowed regions of the moon are truly cold traps, collecting and preserving material over billions of years."

LCROSS was launched June 18, 2009 as a companion mission to the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter, or LRO, from NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. After separating from LRO, the LCROSS spacecraft held onto the spent Centaur upper stage rocket of the launch vehicle, executed a lunar swingby and entered into a series of long looping orbits around the Earth.

After traveling approximately 113 days and nearly 5.6 million miles (9 million km), the Centaur and LCROSS separated on final approach to the moon. Traveling a fast as a speeding bullet, the Centaur impacted the lunar surface shortly after 4:31 a.m. PDT Oct. 9 with LCROSS watching with its onboard instruments. Approximately four minutes of data was collected before the LCROSS itself impacted the lunar surface.

Working closely with scientists from LRO and other observatories that viewed the impact, the LCROSS team is working to understand the full scope of the LCROSS data. LRO continues to make passes over the impact site to give the LCROSS team additional insight into the mechanics of the impact and its resulting craters.

What other secrets will the moon reveal? The analysis continues!

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[quade 4]

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If there's enough water that we can harvest it for lunar exploration (and maybe even mine it for fuel), then that really is significant. I have doubts that there's enough there for us to really make use of.

Sadly, no matter how much there is I don't think I'm going to see another man walk on the moon in my lifetime. There just isn't the political will to do it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver