zp vs f-111 canopy size

[DrewB 0]

Hi
This is my first time posting in here, I have been scanning the forums trying to get up to speed on what been happening in the sport over the last few years. I started Jumping in 1996, did a couple of hundred jumps and then real life got the the way and I havent jumped since 1999.
The other half now wants to learn (yippeee!) so the AFF course is booked and I am set for a retrain this week.

My question is regarding thoughts on mains for new jumpers now , as opposed to then.
When I graduated AFF the general rule was to start with an F-111 then graduate to a smaller Zero-P. It also seemd to be accepted that you needed a smaller canopy in zero-P than F-111 and also that you shouldnt underload a zero P. eg I was being told to consider a pd 190 or sabre 170.

Following this advice. I bought my first canopy , a new PD190 after about 20 jumps ( I weigh 155 - 160) jumped this for 100 or so jumps then bought a sabre 150 which i still have.
I was very pleased with this progression which i think is faily conservative. I would have recomended something similar. However it seems that times have moved on and a new pd-190 ( kicking myself for not hanging on to mine now) is no longer an option.
Also I have seen a lot of advice contradicting that now. ie you need the same size canopy over your head regardless of zero p or f-111 they fly differently but you still need the same size, and light loading zero-p is now ok it seems.

So heres my question , would a similar sized zero-P be about the equivalent rate of progression than an f-111 at the same size , or should it be a smaller zero-P canopy to get the same kind of response as I got from the pd-190 ( damn i loved that canopy !).

I have been thinking about suggesting a Triathlon thinking that the 7 cell may make a better starting point ( plus i could maybe use it for bridge day !) but would a Tri 190 be underloaded for somebody of 150 lbs ?

I guess what I am trying to get my head around is how would a 190 tri compare to a pd 190 as a first canopy for someone of 155 lbs without gear.

Thanks for any input, getting my head around all this when i was living it everyweekend was difficult enough, having been out of the loop for so long it gets really mind boggling.

Drew

[skybytch 273]

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a new pd-190 ( kicking myself for not hanging on to mine now) is no longer an option.

Sure it is. AFAIK, PD still makes 'em. Question is do you want to spend what a new one will cost you when for the same price or less you can pick up a good used zp main?

I made the switch to zp a few years ago. I've done over 250 jumps on my Spectre 170, loading it at around 1.0 (how close and whether it's over or under depends on how well I've been eating ). The only "problem" I've found with a zp canopy loaded lightly is when the winds come up - when students go on wind hold I put myself on wind hold too, 'cuz I hate backing up on final. I've also noticed that I "feel" turbulent air more under that canopy than under the Safire 149 I've been jumping recently.

Best advice I can give you on main selection is demo, demo, demo before you buy! The only way you'll know which size and type is right for you is to go jump each type and size you are interested in.

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I guess what I am trying to get my head around is how would a 190 tri compare to a pd 190 as a first canopy for someone of 155 lbs without gear.

imho, either one would be a good first canopy. I lean toward recommending zp mains so you avoid having to relearn how to flare when you make the switch from F111 to zp.

The Tri will be less fun to pack.

[DrewB 0]

Thanks for that info, it appears they are stil made, just not very prominent on the website.
Looking at the specs though I see that PD puts an exit weight of 170lbs in the int-adv catergory for a 190 wher as the triathalon sees that loading as a student /novice level.
So would a fairer comparison be the tri 170 to the pd 190 ?



Thaks again

Drew

[PhreeZone 20]

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I have been thinking about suggesting a Triathlon thinking that the 7 cell may make a better starting point ( plus i could maybe use it for bridge day !)

Probally want to check on that since they are seriously shying people away from using skydiving gear off the Bridge nowdays. Its almost always recommended to take a full BASE rig with a BASE canopy off of it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[DrewB 0]

Thanks for that heads up , I had been reading up on that and saw they had restricted the specs on the skydiving gear they will allow.

What when and whether I do the bridge is a debate still to be had, the point was that a lightly loaded 7 cell would be a nice backup canopy to have for those less than perfect situations.

WhenI got my sabre ( a little bit ahead of whenI should have ) I kept the 190 as a backup and would go back to that for jumping into a new dropzone etc.

Just not sure that the tri190 isnt going to be a bit too big a bit too soon . tht would be a .9 wingloading whers reading hear the recondation sems to be for 1 - 1.1 for a new jumper.

Blue Ones

Drew

[phoenixlpr 0]

Why do you need a backup rig?

If situation is not acceptable I simply don't jump with any rig.

[PhreeZone 20]

.9 is fine for a first rig. I jump with a girl right now that's at about the same wingloading on a Tri 170 and shes fine under it. My Girlfriend is under a canopy at about .8-.9 and only in cases of high winds has issues. In most those cases she does'nt jump anyways due to her experience level.

A 190 is a great starter canopy at that loading level.

Go check out PD's website and read the educational articles on it about canopy sizing and its myths. Even better since you are getting back into the sport is to read http://www.bigairsportz.com/publishing.php Brian Germains "The Parachute and its Pilot" book. Probally some of the best $30 you will ever spend in skydiving.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[DrewB 0]

Good Point!
I guess the real reason for a backup rig is the oppotunity for more jumps !!!

Also my logic really only applied during the transition period. It wasnt so much about jumping the safer canopy as the one I knew best.

Raises an interesting question. If owning two rigs would peoples preference be to have two identical mains or differnet mains for different situations ?

Drew

[DrewB 0]

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A 190 is a great starter canopy at that loading level.

Thanks, Although I am still not clear on if that statement applies equally to f-111 zero-p

read http://www.bigairsportz.com/publishing.php Brian Germains "The Parachute and its Pilot" book. Probally some of the best $30 you will ever spend in skydiving.

Will Do ! Thanks

[PhreeZone 20]

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Thanks, Although I am still not clear on if that statement applies equally to f-111 zero-p

It applies to both if the F11 is in good shape and not ragged out. A highly used F111 (800+ usually) greatly loses its flare power ands its ability to safely land you goes down in time.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[phoenixlpr 0]

Having several rig because of different disciplines is OK.

I won`t keep a second rig for any other reason.

[PhreeZone 20]

You might not but I have considered getting another larger canopy for different situations. There are lots of people out there that have certian mains for certian tasks. Jumping a VX88 might be fine as a canopy for your normal weekend, but if you are doing a demo its usually a very poor choice. In moving around on certian DZ's I wish I had a larger canopy until I learned the area somewhat and was able to fly into the traffic pattern correctly (WFFC comes to mind here).

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[phoenixlpr 0]

I would consider accuracy/demo(CRW, WS) a skydiving discipline.
Read my previous post again.

[Kris 0]

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I would consider accuracy/demo(CRW, WS) a skydiving discipline.
Read my previous post again.

And read Phree's previous post again, while you're at it. He does mention wanting a larger main for jumping at a new or extremely busy DZ.

This is one of those times where less talking and more reading might be apropos on your part.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[EvilLurker 2]

I kept my original rig for a couple of reasons: we have a lot of downtime here due to the rain (sometimes almost 6 months) and it seemed like a pretty good idea to make my first couple of jumps of the new season on a bigger canopy, and it sure comes in handy if you ever want to make that next load and don't have time to pack. I made a couple of nice sunset loads on my extra rig, and caught a chance for some RW loads because I could go RIGHT NOW. If you offset your repacks, you can have one with the rigger and jump the other one for a week. I loaned it out a couple of times to friends, too. I don't see any downside to having 2 sets of gear besides having to pay for twice the number of repacks and having to buy another Cypres, if you feel it's necessary. I had one Cypres and moved it to my primary after the first jumps of the season.