BillyVance 35 #1 December 9, 2009 I have been renovating the master walk-in closet. It's got a sloped ceiling that follows the roof slope as part of a cathedral ceiling in the master suite. I decided to make use of the extra space up high by installing a 2x4 framed shelf approx. 7 feet off the floor, 2 feet deep. I will be installing drywall on the underside and outside edges. However, in doing so, is going to cut down on the amount of light reaching below the shelving from the ceiling light. I decided I wanted to install recessed lighting in the bottom of the shelf, a total of 5. However, there were no standard recessed lighting fixtures that would fit within the 3-1/2" space provided by the studs I used. So I bought a set of five 20 watt light fixtures that all come with their own standard wire and 110 volt plugs. They can be mounted on the surface, or remove the exterior body behind the face and recess them in the wall or ceiling (which is what I want to do). But the wiring diagram provided with the product shows using an extension cord with extra outlets to be plugged into a 110 volt outlet. What I really want to do is wire all five light fixtures in sequence in addition to the ceiling light and all will be controlled by one switch. See pictures.... #42 - standard single pole switch (recently moved to inside the closet from the other side of the wall) #43 - standard light fixture on the ceiling #44 - new light fixture with standard wire and plug #59 - underside of shelf where 5 lights will be spaced out around the perimeter close to the edge of the shelf Anybody out there that can tell me what to do? All 6 lights together will not overload the 20 amp circuit breaker so I'm okay there. It's just the wiring I have a problem with. There's a 14/2 Romex wire going from the circuit breaker panel to the switch and another 14/2 Romex wire going from the switch to the ceiling light."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #2 December 9, 2009 Its a local code violation here to splice wires in mid circuit like you are trying to do with out at each connection having an outlet and box.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydveraz 0 #3 December 9, 2009 http://www.electrical-online.com/wiringdiagrams.htmArizona only has two seasons, Hot and HOTTER! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #4 December 9, 2009 The problem I have is that when I took apart one of the lights, the standard power plug wire went straight into the box housing the lightbulb plug. Just two wires. No ground. Ah well, I guess I will just end up calling an electrician that I've used before. Just going to cost me money. Another option would be to take out the single switch receptacle box and put in a double switch receptacle box so I would just add a 2nd switch just for the 5 new lights, but that still doesn't solve my problem with how to wire them all together, unless I simply just have to cut the plugs off and splice the wires in the diagram shown to 14/2 romex wire?"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #5 December 9, 2009 Billy what does the mounting hardware on the new lights look like? they don't look large enough in diameter to fit properly on a circular ceiling box. Otherwise you could just wire them in parallel with wire nuts after you strip the plugs off of each one and mount them just like a regular fixture individually. The grounding issue can then be taken care of by using metal boxes Provided there is metal to metal contact with the new fixtures, and making sure each box is grounded using a grounding pigtail. Just run the romex from box to box just like a regular wiring job with the wire from the switch powering the first box in the line. You can do eeeeet! Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #6 December 9, 2009 The short answer, of course, is to wire them all in parallel to the 2-wire cable going from the switch to the existing light if you want them all to come on at the same time with one switch. How, exactly, you do this will determine whether you are within "code". I'm not sure, but I don't think you can use the wires with the cut off plugs "legally" if they are to be hidden within the "ceiling". You may be able to get away with it if you run them inside a conduit, flexible or otherwise. (It IS Alabama, after all.) Also, they will need to be connected inside a junction box as mentioned before. (disclaimer: I'm not an electrician but my boss makes me do some of that work anyway.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #7 December 9, 2009 "but I don't think you can use the wires with the cut off plugs "legally" if they are to be hidden within the "ceiling" sure can if they are enclosed in a UL box with standard wire nuts...metal boxes for grounding in this case. Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,468 #8 December 9, 2009 Hi BV, I am not an electrician; I am a Mech. Engineer who has done a lot of household wiring. Quote 20 amp circuit breaker There's a 14/2 Romex wire going from the circuit breaker panel to the switch Never use 14/2 on a 20A circuit. You must use 12/2; 14/2 is for a 15A circuit. I think you need to call an electrician; you keep going you might just want to get your HomeOwner's Insurance up to date. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #9 December 9, 2009 Quote "but I don't think you can use the wires with the cut off plugs "legally" if they are to be hidden within the "ceiling" sure can if they are enclosed in a UL box with standard wire nuts...metal boxes for grounding in this case. Well, that I can do. The light fixtures have a mounting bracket that when you push the fixture through the hole, the bracket flexes and then snaps out past the inside face of the drywall, anchoring the fixture in place. There is definitely room within the shelf for metal boxes to connect the wires inside. Thanks."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #10 December 9, 2009 No probunfortunately if they are not designed to screw directly onto a metal UL ceiling box- then an alternative is to simply mount a properly installed plug strip discretely exposed under the soffit you've got going there and plug each one into it that way if you wire the plug strip to the switch and hide all the wires somehow without burying any connections behind drywall you've got a legal setup that will work too. then you can surface mount the suckas as per the directions. Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #11 December 9, 2009 Billy, the cord provided with the light is not code legal to be run concealed inside a wall if powered at 120v. If the bottom of the shelf does not get covered, the cord can be spliced in a legal junction box. It might be easier to just install a new receptacle that you plug the new cords into. This receptacle can be controlled by a switch. If you plan on using romex to the new box, it must be concealed/protected if installed less than 8' above the floor. Bx cable can be installed exposed below 8'. http://homerenovations.about.com/od/electrical/a/artromexconduit.htm http://www.seatekco.com/bx.htm If the lights will stay on for more than 3 hours at a time, the circuit has to be derated from 20 amps to only 16 amps. edit: Jerry, good catch on the 14/2 & 20 amp breaker, I read right passed that. Not good and needs to be fixed.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #12 December 9, 2009 hot goes on the left - cold goes on the right - poop will not run uphill..... oh wait - that's plumbing! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Misternatural 0 #13 December 9, 2009 >the cord provided with the light is not code legal to be run concealed inside a wall if powered at 120v. absolutely- the whole plug rigging with a plug strip may be discretely hidden behind a facia board on the face of the shelf as long as they are not closed in...Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires. D S #3.1415 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #14 December 9, 2009 Some notes: 1) You can just wire them up (hot to hot, neutral to neutral, ignore ground) and they will work. For safety it's best to use grounded boxes and metallic conduit with all wiring contained inside. If you do this ensure that the metal frame of the lamp makes good contact with the metal box, and run a ground wire separately through each box. Use the grounding screw present in each box. 2) If you have 14ga Romex, I'd suggest going from a 20 amp to a 15 amp breaker. 3) An alternative is to put an outlet next to each lamp. You can then shorten the cord on each one. Awkward but easier to convince someone that it's code. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #15 December 9, 2009 Billy, Since you suck at taking pictures I have a few questions. Are you better at home improvement?What kind of lights are inside the new fixtures? If they burn out will you be able to replace the bulbs? You mentioned adding a 2nd switch the existing junction box. Are you talking about using the mini 2-switch receptacle that fits into one single box? If so, are you planning on running a whole separate line from your breaker box? If so, Why not add a double switch junction box and do it right? Since the code violation of splicing off the existing line would prohibit anything other than a new line pretty much forcing you to run a new line what kind a gauge are wires on the lights? If you are planning on running power on extended periods of time are you sure those wires are strong enough to carry the current over YEARS of use and not eventually crap out on you? Worst case....ah, well I'm sure you know what that is. I assume the wires on the outlets are the multi-strand wires have the pos and neg braided around each other inside the shield. I am a hobby electrician, at best but I would not suggest put them behind your drywall. Look for some thick gauge wires that will carry your current as requires. Off the top of my head I think 14/2* is 15 amp 120v rating. *14/2 is 14 gauge 2 wire (with ground). Anyway, I just had a few questions about your plan. I stopped by during my study break. If you're going to do electrical. do it correctly or you'll be sorry. However, it should be simple to install the lights you have now. But Those questions just seem to beg asking in my mind. My photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #16 December 10, 2009 i would get a house wiring book from lowes or home depot and give the job a shot myself before hiring an electrician (unless you know the electrician and can pay him in beer or he's an auburn fan and you can make some sort of wager with him). with the book in front of you, you should be able to do what you want within code. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 334 #17 December 10, 2009 #43 - standard light fixture on the ceiling I'm pretty certain you cannot have that type of light (exposed incandescent bulb) in a closet and meet current code. Well, maybe in Podunk, AL, but not elsewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #18 December 10, 2009 Quote #43 - standard light fixture on the ceiling I'm pretty certain you cannot have that type of light (exposed incandescent bulb) in a closet and meet current code. Well, maybe in Podunk, AL, but not elsewhere. There is a glass globe that goes on the fixture. I'm not sure where I put it. I took it off a while back. They're like a couple bucks at Home Depot. I have a Home Depot Home Improvement 1-2-3 book, but the diagrams and options shown in there didn't really help me. To answer other questions, the fixtures use tiny little 20 watt bulbs that can be removed, provided that you use a cloth and not allow direct contact with your skin (oils). Since I have a 20 amp circuit breaker, what wire will work best? It seems like the simplest method would be to replace the single switch box with a double switch box and install a new switch next to the existing switch, and the new switch would solely control the 5 new light fixtures. I could just route a short length of romex wire from switch to switch for power, right? I will install metal boxes for each light fixture if it fits, or I will find a way. The hole I will be boring in the drywall is only 2-3/8" in diameter."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #19 December 10, 2009 If you're going to run a new line just add a new breaker. 15 amps. As stated above, you don't wanna over amp your fixtures.My photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #20 December 10, 2009 ALL installed wiring between a 20A breaker and its loads MUST be #12 or larger per NEC. That means that all switches, outlets and fixtures must have #12 wire between them. When the #12 wire enters a (plastic or metal) box that houses a switch, outlet or direct connection to a fixture, the #12 wire attaches directly to the switch, outlet or fixture and ALL downstream switches/outlets/fixtures must be fed with #12 wire. If a box feeds a light fixture, the light fixture may (will) have wires much smaller than #12, and that's OK, but the wires that are part of the light fixture must be contained within the housing supplied as part of the fixture and/or the box that the fixture is attached to. The outlets and switches themselves can be rated at 15A, even though the breaker is 20A. Anything that has an attached cord/plug designed to simply plug into an outlet is not part of the NEC code in this respect, but you need to consider total current load (amperage) when plugging a bunch of stuff into a circuit fed by a single breaker. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #21 December 10, 2009 Billy, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this... You have two options: 1. Before you begin work, turn the circuit breaker off at the panel. or, 2. Give the camera to the wife (who probably takes better pictures) so she can get a good shot of you laying on the floor, cussing and seeing big, bright, blue spots in your eyes.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefalljason 0 #22 December 10, 2009 Hey Billy, I am a licensed electrician. Certified in TN and GA(which recipricates with AL). If you still need some help, drop me a PM with your phone number and I will call you with advice. Blue Skies, Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #23 December 10, 2009 I would advise installing a second switch. Then the most simple answer could be to install an outlet or junction box above the shelf and hidden from view, at every location you want one of those light. Make hole that will be covered up by light fixture and big enough for plug to fit through - voila -I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #24 December 10, 2009 billy.... First thing...... go out and rent a BOBCAT... jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shell666 0 #25 December 10, 2009 Maybe you should consider getting some of these http://www.solutions.com/jump.jsp?itemID=12001&itemType=PRODUCT&iProductID=12001'Shell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
