AggieDave 6 #26 June 2, 2005 Quote and canopies are sewn together outside the US? Although FL is a very very very weird place, they are in the US. It depends on the manufacture, some are sewn in the US, some in Spain and coming soon some knock off canopies from China (that part is a joke).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #27 June 2, 2005 Quote.. I wonder if the next step for containers will be to go stock with all the features and sizes. Well I can think of a couple of basic offers from manufacturers... Dolphin and Genera. They never did very well and were preceived as lower end.... They did exactly what your noting, basic rig very little options and lower cost Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #28 June 2, 2005 Main canopies are not TSO'ed; H/C systems are. Getting a TSO is a huge expense that has to be recouped. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #29 June 2, 2005 Quote $2189 is the new base price for Vector 3-M and Micron So a street price with 25%off will be 1641.75 With options that'll hit $2000 easily. base: 2189 25% discount: 1641.75 hip rings 200 freefly pud 35 logo + embroidery 85 deluxe backpad 75 freefly mod 10 rws logo embroidery 25 total without skyhook 2071.75 Competition is a wonderful thing. Aerodyne's Icon is 1,799 with most options included. Street price is 1,529. Articulated Wings is 1,480.00 with most options included. Street price is $1,110 Apart from the Skyhook, I'd challenge anyone to show how a Vector-3 is "better" than an Icon. Is the priveldge of paying even more for a skyhook really worth $500? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #30 June 2, 2005 QuoteA little history might be interesting...In the early 70's both a Para Commander and a conventional container system cost $225 each. When Para Flite came out with the first commercial ram air, the Para Plane, they doubled the PC price ($550). I guess because they figured a ram-air was at least twice as good as a round. When John Sherman and I came out with the first "modern" piggybacks, we made a terrible mistake, we priced them the same as the conventional gear they replaced ($250), and we have been regretting it ever since. And back then, the canopies even came with risers and toggles. Guess who has to supply them now. The truth is that a modern piggyback costs as much, or even more to make than a cross braced canopy. Simply put, the only real money container manufacturers have been making is when we sell a canopy. (Witness that Performance Designs is larger than all the container manufacturers combined.) This "problem" has recently gotten worse by how extremely custom rigs have become. They are beginning to resemble NASCAR. Every rig is embroidered...many all over. There are at least 3 reserve ripcords to chose from, and even one of them can be embroidered. The same is true for cutaway handles and main pilot chute handles, not to mention several types of main pilot chute. It's very rare that we get to make even two rigs alike. We can no longer stock anything. We recently added up all the main risers options we offer...three types of 3-rings...3 types of webbing...6 or 7 different lengths of each of those types of webbing...each available in 10 or 12 colors...and lets not forget dive loops or blocks and riser housings. Multiply all these options together, and you will find out that we offer over 5,000 different risers alone. To be able to make all these custom options we have to stock literally thousands of separate inventory items. And because we don't use much of any particular material, we pay top dollar for the small quantity orders. If you want to have some fun, call up my good friends at PD and order a truly custom canopy. In addition to your normal fabric color scheme, tell them that you want the "A" lines red, the "B" lines blue, the "C" lines lavender, and the "D" lines pink. You also want every other reinforcing tape green and the line attachment tabs black. Oh, and by the way, could you please sew the whole thing together with orange thread. And don't forget your name embroidered on the stabilizers, in baby blue. If you can get them to stop laughing long enough, tell them you would like your new canopy for 30% off the normal price. And please don't tell me this example is far fetched...You do it to me every day. [Standing Applause] That is truley awsome Bill. The frustrations that made me get out of the gear business sumed up in a post. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #31 June 2, 2005 QuoteWow, another $300. I remember picking up my Vector II brand new for under $1k in '93. Can anyone explain why canopy prices seem to have remained pretty level and container prices have gone bonkers in the past decade? I paid $1500 for a stiletto in '94, and that's about what they're selling for now. I've been on hiatus for a while... Dollar for dollar the increas has been about the same. If you compare retail prices the Stiletto's increase has been about $700. The preception of a larger surge in Container pricing is due to the increase in cost options. Base prices have increased inline with canopies. Many manufacturers in order to standardize production and reduce the chance of a mistake in options have included many in the base price.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egons 0 #32 June 2, 2005 ...is it really worth having a 3-ring system, AAD... and the list carries on! The Skyhook is not a bling bling toy - its a safety innovation and you need to look at it that way - obviously you have enough experience to understand that you will never be in a position to need a skyhook! I hope that is the case... The Skyhook is simply a valuable safety innovation that has taken years to come of to the point that it is availble to the skydiving market. If you think the Skyhook is the only reason skydivers buy the Vector 3 Micron... then you need to look closer and understand why we build the V3 the way we do! The V3 is maybe not everyones choice and I am super glad you are happy with your Icon. I am not bashing any other product here, but comparing the V3 against other manufacturers is definitely not the way we sell them. The manufacturing costs of the V3 are simply higher than your Icon - simple economics of one product being manufactured in South African vs US. I am sure we could get the V3 built in China for a fraction of the cost... No disrespect to the Chinese, but we build military equipment for the US and various countries all over the world and outsourcing our product manufacturing abroad is not an option and as a US citizen I am sure you could understand this. The V3 is proudly built in the US "Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #33 June 2, 2005 QuoteWow, another $300. I remember picking up my Vector II brand new for under $1k in '93. Can anyone explain why canopy prices seem to have remained pretty level and container prices have gone bonkers in the past decade? I paid $1500 for a stiletto in '94, and that's about what they're selling for now. I've been on hiatus for a while... Alot of people getting alot of freebies! JBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #34 June 2, 2005 But Wings is made in Florida, and even cheaper than the Icon. Yes, the main pieces come in S-XL rather than custom cut to the inch, but with the way my body size varies, I'm not sure I would have benefitted from a more precise measurement. It also let them build my container in less than 4 weeks. (October timeframe). But given that the wait list pushed vectors out to many months until you increase production, clearly people like what they're getting from you. Nothing wrong with making some money on innovation. You might look to find ways to spike the rental pools out there- I usually saw Infinities (which I don't like), some Wings, and then a host of older designs. I used the Vector 2 a lot in the student rentals. Wings was by far the most comfortable I used, and the price made it an easy choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egons 0 #35 June 2, 2005 I really do not want to get into a large debate as to why Wings is cheaper than the V3 or an Icon is priced the way it is. I do not have numbers in front of me as to how many man hours it takes to construct a Wings. The two companies are very different in many ways and similar in the fact they both manufacturer a sport harness/container. One thing is for sure on the business side - we simply cannot afford to build products at a loss... and I don't believe any company should. Making money out of innovation - sure we do, but also understand innovation comes at a great expence having a large Engineering department and testing programs for which you as a customer should appreciate knowing it has gone through a well documented program. You bought your Wings based on comfort, price and lead time! The Wings is a fine system and I do believe every manufacturer does an honest job in building the safest gear they can. Unfortunately no one likes price increases - me included! I am the one batting here at the factory with my fellow colleagues trying to keep our exit pricing to the sport market as low as possible... ultimately the bean counter (accountant) has to be pleased with the margins we yield from our various products in order for the company to stay competitive in the market place on a global stand point and affording us the opportunity to grow as a company at the same time. Rental pools at dropzones are for the most part up to the gear store owner or drop zone operator. Very much the same as its their choice what tandems rigs they purchase or aircrafts they operate and for the most part its a financial decision as to what they can afford and what they cannot. I can tell you that we spend a small fortune on going to Boogies/Events and dropzone visits around the world - I think it has paid off extremely well as we have build more 43000 containers! Hope this sheds some light! Cheers Egon "Start doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you're doing the impossible!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #36 June 2, 2005 QuoteApart from the Skyhook, I'd challenge anyone to show how a Vector-3 is "better" than an Icon. I just love knowing how well thought out the Vector 3 is. I'm sure I couldn't convince you that it's a better container because you've made up your mind that it's not. But if we put our rigs side by side, I guarantee I could show you features that at least I would consider "better," as well as differences in quality control. Do those differences make it "better?" Well, they do the same job with probably similar reliability. So if you want to call em equal, that's fine. But I definitely think a Vector is worth the extra cost (over any other rig... and it's not the most expensive). Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #37 June 2, 2005 Have you seen an Icon up close? The Skyhook is certainly a big advantage of the Vector 3, but I've seen both up close and I can't see any other advantage the Vector has over an Icon - unless you like overpaying, that is. I can assure you, the Icon is also "well thought out". A harness resize only requires removing one panel on the backpad, for example. As for my liking it only because I bought one, you have your causality mixed. I also own a Javelin and last year I helped my wife pick out a new Mirage. I do not wax so vociferously in their favor. Also, I am not sponsored by anyone. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #38 June 2, 2005 QuoteHave you seen an Icon up close? The Skyhook is certainly a big advantage of the Vector 3, but I've seen both up close and I can't see any other advantage the Vector has over an Icon Vector 3 is the only rig, which reserve pin cover flap resists a push (like door strike, etc.) from any direction (thanks to a "fold back"). On other rigs, if a strong push is applied from the bottom up, the reserve flap can move upward (and move a pin), even if the flap stays "closed". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #39 June 2, 2005 When was the last time you saw a reserve flap open on a modern rig? The only open reserve flaps I've ever seen had been closed with velcro. As for the bottom foldback stopping the pin from moving, first I'd like to hear an example of that happening. Secondly, just because the flap doesn't move doesn't mean the pin doesn't move. I'd be more impressed with the Vector 3 if they had some sort of protection from main risers and connector links tearing off the reserve pack tray. I have seen rigs of several manufacturers with pack tray damage from errant risers during main deployment. Current models may have this, I'm not sure. Their manuals online don't appear to mention it, though. Main risers damaging the pack tray is an actual concern, vs the theoretical one above. Not that I'm dissing the Vector. Clearly it's a good rig - just not worth a $500 premium without the skyhook IMHO. Neither is the Javelin for that matter, but that's a different thread. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #40 June 2, 2005 QuoteApart from the Skyhook, I'd challenge anyone to show how a Vector-3 is "better" than an Icon. Is the priveldge of paying even more for a skyhook really worth $500? Time will tell. Just a few years ago there was a pretty big difference in different model rigs with respect to freefall security. Today those differences are getting smaller and smaller. I know of no major sport container being offered in the US today that is not freefly friendly, especially when compared to even the most secure rigs from a few years back. I have a feeling that the higher priced manufacturers are going to have a harder and harder time in the years to come justifying huge price differences in products that are so similar. There seems to be a growing demand for less expensive rigs, and if that continues, the manufacturers that can deliver a quality product at a lower price are going to win the customers' business. I am not pointing out RWS in particular; other skydiving manufacturers have raised their prices as well. But I don't believe for a second that the (higher priced) container manufacturers are not making money. That's just BS. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #41 June 2, 2005 QuoteVector 3 is the only rig, which reserve pin cover flap resists a push (like door strike, etc.) from any direction (thanks to a "fold back"). On other rigs, if a strong push is applied from the bottom up, the reserve flap can move upward (and move a pin), even if the flap stays "closed". Check out a Racer. No American rig currently on the market has the reserve pin security of the Racer. Every rig has its own strengths. Vector has excellent reserve pin coverage, but not the best. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #42 June 3, 2005 Quote Have you seen an Icon up close? Yep, only a couple though. As I said, both a vector and any other rig does the same thing with about the same reliability (any rig with proven inferior reliability probably wouldn't last long). So when someone points out a safety feature or an improvement in one rig, you just say that it solves a problem that doesn't exist (like the pin cover example above). I honestly think RWS does a very poor job of marketing their product. Their website doesn't explain a lot of their options and design features for example. A few things I like about mine (which may very well all be found on other rigs too) are the secondary riser covers (which some people don't think are necessary, but they sure as hell keep the toggles from every coming out in freefall, which I've seen on other rigs), the collins lanyard, the right side RSL (which again might be useless since risers dont break very often), the spandura BOC pouch, the closing loop attached to the bottom flap (one less step in closing the container), the scrunching bridle for the kill line instead of having the kill line exposed in the bag, the linkless canopy/dbag attachment, and the perfect pull up cord pocket on the back of each shoulder strap (whatever you call that area behind the mudflaps). Generally I like knowing that if I have a question about any design feature, I will get a real answer to my question because theres a reason for everything and they are happy to explain what that reason is. They all work fine, but that doesn't make them all equal, in my opinion. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #43 June 3, 2005 QuoteQuote $2189 is the new base price for Vector 3-M and Micron So a street price with 25%off will be 1641.75 With options that'll hit $2000 easily. base: 2189 25% discount: 1641.75 hip rings 200 freefly pud 35 logo + embroidery 85 deluxe backpad 75 freefly mod 10 rws logo embroidery 25 total without skyhook 2071.75 Competition is a wonderful thing. Aerodyne's Icon is 1,799 with most options included. Street price is 1,529. Articulated Wings is 1,480.00 with most options included. Street price is $1,110 Apart from the Skyhook, I'd challenge anyone to show how a Vector-3 is "better" than an Icon. Is the priveldge of paying even more for a skyhook really worth $500? _Am Don't forget the Voodoo... mine costed somewhere around 1700 with stainless. All other options are included in the price (including competition backpad if you ask for it, same as cut-ins!) Oh, and it is sexy, comfy, freefly friendly, not to mention that Sandy and Brenda are so awesome! I see where this thread has gone and just wanted to note that i'm not bashing RWS at all. It is good that there is competition, and people should buy a rig for what is important to them alone. I bought the Voodoo, my next up choices were the Mirage G4 and the Micron. It was a tough call but i'm happy with my choice:) It sure is nice that I didn't have to pay a bunch of money for options that should be standard, though. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #44 June 3, 2005 Katie's ordering a Micron tomorrow Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #45 June 3, 2005 QuoteVector 3 is the only rig, which reserve pin cover flap resists a push (like door strike, etc.) from any direction (thanks to a "fold back"). On other rigs, if a strong push is applied from the bottom up, the reserve flap can move upward (and move a pin), even if the flap stays "closed". Not true.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #46 June 3, 2005 Quote It sure is nice that I didn't have to pay a bunch of money for options that should be standard, though. Angela. Standard acording to who? I bought my Micron for a few reasons, I didn't buy an Jav, Mirage or Icon for a few reasons also (one being my mate is still waiting for his Icon 15 months later, but that's a whole different story). A few of the reasons I bought the Micron are, the look, the fact that I met and spoke with Egon at Equinox and he never once slammed another rig when I asked him why I should buy a RWS rig over anyone elses. I like that fact that most of the innovations in harrness/container manufacture seem to come from RWS Lastly they have a LONG proven track record.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #47 June 3, 2005 QuoteNot true. Which part of my post are you refereing to? BTW, I was comparing non pop-tops to non pop-tops, so I excluded Racers and Reflexes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #48 June 3, 2005 QuoteWhen was the last time you saw a reserve flap open on a modern rig? Here - with fatal results: http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/pdf/vh-mmv.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #49 June 3, 2005 Since when is 10 year old gear "modern" ?!?!? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #50 June 3, 2005 QuoteSince when is 10 year old gear "modern" ?!?!? You jump a Stiletto Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
