Slinks vs. Rapide Links

[Kris 0]

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Something I haven't seen mentioned - soft links are a wear item, Rapide links are not.

Look at my last post.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Assuming that PD (and other manufacturers) get their links from a distributor, as opposed to Para-gear, they pay way less than that. Let's say half, for arguments sake. So that means they are paying $8 for a set. That's way more than the cost of the raw material it takes to make soft links. Raw material that they most likely already have in stock!.

Raw materials they have to pay for and then pay someone to make into Slinks.

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And then they mark it up to $25 AND $30?? You don't really think it cost that much to make those do you?

No idea what it costs them to make, but they are worth what they are worth. I never based my decision on what life saving gear to buy based on what was cheapest.

Didn’t YOU say “And think about it. Is that how you choose gear? BY WHICH ONE IS CHEAPER TO PACK? That attitude is death on a stick.”

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And what is the difference between soft links for the main as opposed to soft links for the reserve? You don't think they use different material, do you? Maybe they gold plate 'em or something?

I’m afraid you are showing your ignorance when it comes to Slinks. The reserve Slinks ARE made from a different, stronger, material. Have you even seen a set of Slinks?

I stand by my statement, Slinks are better than Rapide links.

As for the argument, “What is better”, give me a break. A link that is stronger, lighter, less bulk, doesn’t damage slider grommets, are easier to install, etc, are better than links that are weaker, heavier, more bulk, damages slider grommets, more difficult to install, etc.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Something I haven't seen mentioned - soft links are a wear item, Rapide links are not.

You can only remove and install Rapide links so many times before the threads wear out. Slider bumpers must be replaced as they wear out.

Slinks will last a long time. It is a good idea to replace them when re-lining a canopy, just as it is a good idea to replace Rapide links when re-lining a canopy.

They are both wear items: advantage: no-one.

Derek

[brettpobastad 0]

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So far, we've had proof that Slinks are stronger, lighter and don't mess up the slider grommets. All that I have seen from you is "Slinks are bad".... please show your proof.

I'll say it again so there is no confusion:

Soft links are not 'bad'. I never said they were bad. "I never said that Rapide links (French links) are 'better' then soft links"

I'll put this in every one of my posts on this subject from now on.

But with that in mind, I'm stiil not seeing any 'proof' that soft links are 'better' than Rapide links! The only tests that have been done (as near as I can find so far) have been done by Performance Designs. Here are the 'results' of those tests:

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In our tests, the Performance Design's Slink© survived at loadings beyond the suspension lines and/or riser! In our testing, the failure point of the system was repeatedly the suspension lines or the webbing attaching the three rings to the riser. In comparison tests, the PD reserve soft link survived tests that caused failures and/or severe damage to #4 and #5 stainless steel links! The PD Soft links not only survived these tests, but showed no signs of damage.

I believe this statement to be true. What I also take from this statement (which we all knew anyway) is that a properly installed and maintained link (soft or hard) will survive well after the risers or the lines fail. Where in any of these words is it said that soft links are 'better' than metal links? Or that metal links are bad? Or that metal links are more likely to fail on opening than soft links.

Keeping in mind that I'm not asking any of you for 'proof' that soft links are 'better' than Rapide links, the only other evidence you seem to have is a dropzone.com poll. I'm not sure that qualifies as 'proof' or 'evidence' or even 'valid speculation'.

The only 'proof' I ever asked for is when someone way back on page 2 or 3 of this thread wrote something to the effect of 'having many examples of Rapide links failing' When I asked for some examples I was sent a bunch of other dropzone.com threads and a couple of pictures (the same picture twice, actually) of a bent link. How is this 'proof' that soft links are 'better' or 'stronger' than rapide links.

(Note: In all of those 'examples' provided to me, all of the 'failures' could be attributed to poor installation or maintenence.)

With all this in mind, my 'proof' (your term, not mine) is that I have owned, jumped and serviced an uncountable amount of canopies with Rapide links in the last 15 or 20 years or so and I have seen one example of a bent Rapide link due to poor installation. I have seen many examples of slider grommet damage due to uncovered links. I personally own half a dozen canopies at the present time. Some old ones and some made within the last couple of years. Some with thousands and thousands of jumps on them with the same slider and the original links. I have never had a problem. I have never had a broken link I have never had one come loose. My slider grommets have always been in great shape. Never a problem. And I can get my slider down over my links, if I want to, and I don't feel the links through he backpad of my rig. Never have.

Now this is not 'proof' or 'evidence' that Rapide links are 'better' than soft links or that soft links are 'good' or 'not evil' ....or somesuch. I didn't ask for any proof nor did I offer to provide any proof. Because I don't have any and neither do you.

One fact we do know for sure is that Rapide links have been around doing their job for a lot longer than soft links. That is not an indictment of soft links. It is an endorsement of the 'history of service' of Rapide links.

Go back and re-read my first three posts on this thread (or maybe it's the other 'slinks' thread, I forget)

I'm not trying to talk you out of your 'slinks' and into a set of French links. I don't get a percentage of sales or anything like that. I shouldn't have gotten personal about it back awhile ago and again, I apologize for that. But for chrissakes, use your heads, man!

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[brits17 0]

Twice I have seen a landed main parachute with an open rapide link. This is one reason I believe Slinks are better because they prevent this situation from even happening.

Of course liability relies on the jumper in both instances for improperly maintaining gear... however a product that provides preventative measures is ultimately 'better' in my opinion.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[britboynz 0]

Ok, IMHO Soft links are better more user friendly than rapide links.

There, are we happy now

Russ (who has PD Slinks on his main & reserve)

[Ron 10]

I like Slinks...

Well, I like soft links. Made or bought.

I have seen way to many Rapid links open after landing....Now to be honest I can't think of ONE fatality die to that, but still the thought of a rapid link opening up on me is just creepy.

I like the thought that is a soft link blows...I'll know it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[brettpobastad 0]

What does IMHO mean? And how do you do that thing with the line through the word? That's cool!

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[IanHarrop 42]

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What does IMHO mean? And how do you do that thing with the line through the word? That's cool!

IMHO - In My Humble Opinion

Click on Markup Help in the area where you create your reply. what you get is here:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=markup_help;

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Hooknswoop 19]

Maybe my question got lost above, but have you seen a set of Slinks, main and reserve?

Do you see the cost of the links as an issue?

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

Didn’t you say:

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Still not buyin' it, Kris. First of all, those tests don't show me (or you) anything. I still don't see any numbers. I don't see any testing procedures either.

In response to:

"In our tests, the Performance Design's Slinks survived at loadings beyond the suspension lines and/or riser! In our testing, the failure point of the system was repeatedly the suspension lines or the webbing attaching the three rings to the riser. In comparison tests, the PD reserve soft link survived tests that caused failures and/or severe damage to #4 and #5 stainless steel links! The PD Soft links not only survived these tests, but showed no signs of damage.”

Now you say:

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I believe this statement to be true

What changed your mind?

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But with that in mind, I'm stiil not seeing any 'proof' that soft links are 'better' than Rapide links!

Now that you believe Slinks are stronger than Rapide links, do you think that stronger isn’t better?

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I have seen one example of a bent Rapide link due to poor installation.

Ever seen a broken Slink?

Ever seen an incorrectly installed Slink fail? I do know of more than one Slink not failing even though it was incorrectly assembled.

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I have seen many examples of slider grommet damage due to uncovered links.

Ever seen grommet damage from a Slink?

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One fact we do know for sure is that Rapide links have been around doing their job for a lot longer than soft links.

And “L” bars have been around a lot longer than Rapide links, doing their job. Why do you use Rapide links and not “L” bars?

What would be a better link than a Rapide link?

Stronger without increasing bulk?

No need for slider bumpers to prevent damage to slider grommets?

No tools or lock-tite REQUIRED to install the link?
(You still haven’t answered if you have ever assembled a PD reserve since you said you have never used lock-tite like the manual says to do)

What would a better link be in your opinion?

Derek

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Depends on what you want out of your links...

I like slinks on my main because
1) It's easier to pull the slider past the links after opening
2) I intensly dislike installing and removing slider bumpers
3) I don't need any tools to swap out my main

On the flip side, it adds a little to the maintenance cost of the system, and gives me one more thing to keep an eye on. If you never swap out canopies, and you don't care to bring the slider past the links... it's kind of "6 of one, half dozen the other."

For my reserve, I lean toward rapide links. As an engineer and rigger, I understand that they aren't any "better" from a functional point of view, but I just plain feel more comfortable with metal links on my reserve. Also, I have yet to hear of rapide links failing for any reason other than neglect (loose and/or cross-threaded barrels). And I do NOT neglect my reserve!

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Depends on what you want out of your links...

I would think #1 strength.

If a link was stronger without being bulkier, and had no disadvantages, it would be better than rapide links.

I have repaired reserve slider grommets and replaced reserve sliders because of damage from Rapide links. I install slider bumpers on reserve rapide links whenever I pack one that doesn't have them to prevent this.

Derek

[brettpobastad 0]

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Didn’t you say:

Pookie Bear

I've already responded to all these quotes. Most of the quotes were responses. Go back and re-read the thread from the begining.

Brett

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[pilotdave 0]

Other than when not properly cared for, what is the weak point in a riser/link/suspension line system with rapide links?

If rapide links are strong enough, I don't think the extra strength of a slink is such a big advantage. I can't imagine it's a bad thing, but if rapide links never fail just because they aren't strong enough, you don't need anything stronger. Again, stronger isn't worse, but I don't see it as better either.

But the other advantages of slinks do make them better, in my opinion.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Other than when not properly cared for, what is the weak point in a riser/link/suspension line system with rapide links?

Type 7 webbing is rated to 6000 pounds.

A stainless steel #4 Rapide link has a safe working load of 615 pounds.

725 Spectra has a strength of, well, 725 pounds. 725 X 4 lines = 2900 pounds total.

Seems like the Rapide link is the weak link.

A Rapide link can work loose and then fail on opening, a Slink doesn’t.

Derek

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I would think #1 strength.

You really think so? If strength was #1, why would we have mini links at all? For that matter, why would we have slinks for mains and stronger slinks for reserves? We could all use L-bar links like they have on vector tandem reserves, and never have a link break again, but who wants to do that?

This goes beyond just links. If strength was #1, why do we use type mini risers and mini 3-rings? Is there really an "advantage" to mini 3-rings? Why are small canopies frequently equipped with 425 spectra? How many people would really notice that 1/2% difference in drag, or the extra 10 cubic inches of the container that standard spectra would need? Why is the racer the only sport harness (that i know of) that uses type 13 webbing? Why do some manufacturers use a combination of type 7 and 8 webbing for reserve risers instead of all type 7? What's the advantage there?

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You really think so?

Yes.

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If strength was #1, why would we have mini links at all?

Because it is a trade off between weight and bulk and strength otherwise we could use 10,000 pounds shackles. "L" bars are good for rounds with a lot of lins, but not so good for squares with less lines. The link could be side-loaded without enough linesw to prevent side loading.

Given the 2 most popular choices of Rapide links and Slinks, Slinks are stronger without increasing weight or bulk. In fact, they have less bulk and weight.

This is a discussion about which is better, Rapide links or Slinks since they are what is in common usage.

So, between Rapide links and Slinks, which do you think are better?

Derek

[brettpobastad 0]

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If strength was #1, why would we have mini links at all? For that matter, why would we have slinks for mains and stronger slinks for reserves? We could all use L-bar links like they have on vector tandem reserves, and never have a link break again, but who wants to do that?

If strength was #1, why do we use type mini risers and mini 3-rings? Is there really an "advantage" to mini 3-rings? Why are small canopies frequently equipped with 425 spectra? How many people would really notice that 1/2% difference in drag, or the extra 10 cubic inches of the container that standard spectra would need? Why is the racer the only sport harness (that i know of) that uses type 13 webbing? Why do some manufacturers use a combination of type 7 and 8 webbing for reserve risers instead of all type 7? What's the advantage there?

This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the entire thread but some people just don't get it.

Good job Junkie-man!

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[headoverheels 333]

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Other than when not properly cared for, what is the weak point in a riser/link/suspension line system with rapide links?

Type 7 webbing is rated to 6000 pounds.

A stainless steel #4 Rapide link has a safe working load of 615 pounds.

725 Spectra has a strength of, well, 725 pounds. 725 X 4 lines = 2900 pounds total.

Seems like the Rapide link is the weak link.

A Rapide link can work loose and then fail on opening, a Slink doesn’t.

Derek

Why do you mix tensile strengths with working load?

I don't have any problem with either system. I don't like the increased time required to install/re-install the soft links, but otherwise they are good. Both systems are plenty strong for the application. Rapide links are not as strong, but they can be re-used for thousands of jumps. Bumpers and stainless steel slider grommets mean no nicks/burrs ever. My bumpers required one replacement, at about 1000 jumps on my old canopy. I've gone to soft links, since that is what came with my main, and they pack up a bit flatter (mainly owing to no required bumpers).

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Why do you mix tensile strengths with working load?

All I could find. Doesn't really matter what the tensile strength of a Rapide link is, it's less than a Slink.

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I don't have any problem with either system.

I don't either, but without having any downsides and having a few upsides, notably, they are stronger- Slinks are a better link.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the entire thread but some people just don't get it.

I don't think are qualified to discuss which link is better since you have little to no experience or knowledge of Slinks.

Derek

[beezyshaw 0]

There are two known disadvantages to PD Slinks, as compared to other known ways of making re-usable soft links. The first problem is the tab that is used as the lock on the Slinks. These have been known to fail; this is why it is imperative that the tab remain inside the riser. Of course PD now offers the bumpers, which will hold the tab in place, or you can hand-tack the Slinks to prevent any rotation. The other disadvantage of the Slink, in my opinion, is that they are sewn together with bartacks in their manufacture. When the Slink is installed, you can see that the bartack stitches are going to be exposed to friction from the slider grommets. The spectra material that the link is made from is not subject to wear from slider friction, but the bartack stitches are. So, eventually, the bartacks can become worn by repeated friction against the grommets. There are soft links that don't have these two issues, and therefore are my preference. I wish that in this entire thread the word "Slink" were replaced with "softlink", but I guess it's like saying "Kleenex" when you really mean "tissue".

If anyone is interested in learning more, I'll be happy to provide detailed instructions for making soft links that are stronger and better (yes, I said "better") than "the leading brand". PM for details.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The first problem is the tab that is used as the lock on the Slinks. These have been known to fail

I have never heard of them failing. Where/when has this happened?

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Slink, in my opinion, is that they are sewn together with bartacks in their manufacture. When the Slink is installed, you can see that the bartack stitches are going to be exposed to friction from the slider grommets. The spectra material that the link is made from is not subject to wear from slider friction, but the bartack stitches are. So, eventually, the bartacks can become worn by repeated friction against the grommets.

Have any failed from this?

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I wish that in this entire thread the word "Slink" were replaced with "softlink", but I guess it's like saying "Kleenex" when you really mean "tissue".

You are right, JP caught me on it ealier, I should have said soft link, 'Slink' is shorter to type though

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If anyone is interested in learning more, I'll be happy to provide detailed instructions for making soft links that are stronger and better (yes, I said "better") than "the leading brand". PM for details.

I always made my own for years and never had a problem.

Derek
***

[hookitt 1]

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I should have said soft link, 'Slink' is shorter to type though

When did you begin conserving the number of characters you type

If the slider can hit the loop of the slink where the tab fits through, it can wear it and cause failure. That's why it's important that the tab not be to the outside of the riser.

I've only heard rumor of this happening, but another jumper brought that to my attention when I swiched over to PD's version of soft links.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto