phoenixlpr 0 #51 May 18, 2005 QuoteMaybe because there simply are a LOT of sabre's around? Are they having a bad reputation, because of they were sold in a big number? Try again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #52 May 18, 2005 QuoteAre they having a bad reputation, because of they were sold in a big number? The Sabre only has a bad reputation when compared to today's elliptical canopies in the same class. I cannot think of a single rectangular zero-P canopy that did not have a reputation for having the occasional hard opening. Teiathlons occasionally spanked their owners, as did Monarchs. But you hear about it the most with Sabres because of all the canopies in that class, there are more of them out there. The canopy has not changed any since it had an outstanding reputation, but canopy design, in general, has improved. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jannu 0 #53 May 19, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd injuries caused on opening are not limited to Sabres, so it is more likely caused by packing technique or body position. And these kind of incidents are more frequent with some certain type of canopies. Why, oh why? Terve vaan Lappeenrantaan! What are you trying to say? I don't think this thread was to bash Sabres? As you know, here in Finland the Sabre is probably the most popular canopy being used. And everybody seems to be quite happy with them... Haven't heard of anyone who would have changed canopy from Sabre to something else because it would've been a lousy canopy... If it were to cause a lot of incidents, I bet it wouldn't be used as a (advanced) student canopy here... in Skydive Karjala also? Let me pack your pilot for you... I'm sure I can make it open in a heartbeat... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jannu 0 #54 May 19, 2005 QuoteQuote Maybe because there simply are a LOT of sabre's around? During the mid to late nineties, if the Sabre was not the most popular canopy around, it was definitely in the running. Everybody seemed to have one back then. Everybody still seems to have one... and why not? It's a good allround canopy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #55 May 19, 2005 In Reply To so what if your aorta detahes from your heart on the first jump on it? then you are dead. this has happened more than once. I've never heard of this ever happening. Do you have a link or other verifiable source? It sounds more like something out of Bedtime for Skydivers. Chris Dembowski i know of two people one of them personally who have had detached aorta. one of them died and the other was lucky not to. these were from hard openings.it has happened many times. the girl who died did so in the last 'jump for the cause' womens world record. she is not alone bless their souls. i have also read about hard openings here in the dropzone fourums and 'sabres' and triathalons kept coming up. there were stories of broken fimures and knecks, elongated hip rings and shit. not fun! this finland rule is intrigueing. how could you not be able to jump a crossfire untill 250 jumps. i find my crossfire to be quite docile personally. especially compared to a heatwave or spinletto. the openings are soft and consistant. it flys nice, not too twitchy and they have a long flare similar to a student canopy. define high performance? 250 jumps before you can fly what? a mate of mine had a crossfire 190. o.k. the sabre was the best and heaps of people have them. it is an old design and there is much better products out there now. the paracommander used to be the best as well."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #55 May 19, 2005 In Reply To so what if your aorta detahes from your heart on the first jump on it? then you are dead. this has happened more than once. I've never heard of this ever happening. Do you have a link or other verifiable source? It sounds more like something out of Bedtime for Skydivers. Chris Dembowski i know of two people one of them personally who have had detached aorta. one of them died and the other was lucky not to. these were from hard openings.it has happened many times. the girl who died did so in the last 'jump for the cause' womens world record. she is not alone bless their souls. i have also read about hard openings here in the dropzone fourums and 'sabres' and triathalons kept coming up. there were stories of broken fimures and knecks, elongated hip rings and shit. not fun! this finland rule is intrigueing. how could you not be able to jump a crossfire untill 250 jumps. i find my crossfire to be quite docile personally. especially compared to a heatwave or spinletto. the openings are soft and consistant. it flys nice, not too twitchy and they have a long flare similar to a student canopy. define high performance? 250 jumps before you can fly what? a mate of mine had a crossfire 190. o.k. the sabre was the best and heaps of people have them. it is an old design and there is much better products out there now. the paracommander used to be the best as well."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #56 May 19, 2005 Quotethis finland rule is intrigueing. how could you not be able to jump a crossfire untill 250 jumps. Try buying one from Icarus with less than 500 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #57 May 19, 2005 QuoteThose incidents weren't contributed to hard opening Sabres. One was a harness failure and the other was an apparent heart attack. No, those jumps may not have been on Sabres. There are more, and some MAY have occured on Sabres. I don't have the inclination to plow through all the incident reports and find everything related to sudden death after opening, though, especially since many of them don't state the type of main or the final medical cause of death, but I do remember at least 2 that were attributed to detached aeortas from reading Parachutist. Sorry for the misunderstanding, I wasn't responding to "Sabre's open hard", I was responding to "detached aeorta's have never happened". They have, if the autopsy reports can be believed. Those people, most likely, had an undiagnosed heart problem. I'd say from personal experience, there are quite a number of canopies on the market that have a higher probability of hard openings than a Sabre and I'd personally have no concerns jumping one, but I wouldn't be real surprised if a Sabre "spanked" me now and then, either. I don't know if either of those incidents I posted was related to a Sabre, sorry for not specifying that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #58 May 19, 2005 QuoteIf it were to cause a lot of incidents, I bet it wouldn't be used as a (advanced) student canopy here... in Skydive Karjala also? Nope. We don`t have any like that. But there are jumpers using that around. Some of them are satisfied, some of them not fully satisfied. QuoteLet me pack your pilot for you... I'm sure I can make it open in a heartbeat... Sure. Thanks for your offer. I like to pack it. It was more challenging to pack in the beginning. I can pack like hell, but its still opening soft without problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #59 May 19, 2005 QuoteQuote this finland rule is intrigueing. how could you not be able to jump a crossfire untill 250 jumps. Try buying one from Icarus with less than 500 jumps. well i actually will probably never buy a brand new canopy unless i become a millionare. but i have a few friends who have bought crossfires from nz aerosports (the people who designed them) and they have had less than 200 jumps no questions. crossfires are good canopies. there is no reason anyone should not be allowed to jump one? tell me more about this finland rule?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #60 May 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote this finland rule is intrigueing. how could you not be able to jump a crossfire untill 250 jumps. Try buying one from Icarus with less than 500 jumps. well i actually will probably never buy a brand new canopy unless i become a millionare. but i have a few friends who have bought crossfires from nz aerosports (the people who designed them) and they have had less than 200 jumps no questions. crossfires are good canopies. there is no reason anyone should not be allowed to jump one? tell me more about this finland rule? You have got to be kidding me? Good canopy or not, you saying a xfire is an ok canopy for someone (anyone?) with 200 jumps? Here in The Netherlands you can't jump one either with less than 500 jumps, same for stiletto, katana, diablo, etc. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #61 May 20, 2005 The rule is < 1.3(5) WL and no elliptical under jump nr 250. No more rules about WL and canopy choice. But there`s a strong mentoring system, so they might not let some jump with a really bad canopy choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #62 May 20, 2005 Quotewell i actually will probably never buy a brand new canopy unless i become a millionare. I`m not a millionaire, but I have bought mine as a new after my "old" got lost for weeks: broken lines+cutaway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #63 May 20, 2005 I'm sure the crossfire is a great canopy. That doesn't mean it's a great idea for low timers to jump it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #64 May 20, 2005 i don't know how you guys work it over there? but here we go on yes experience but skill and currency comes into it also. if someone is to do 250 skydives in their first year then are they not more current than an old time frap hatter who has got thier 1200 jumps over the last 20 years? if they have only ever jumped modern canopies and have a good idea of how they work would applying these rules to a person in this situation not be holding them back somewhat? silly rules. what is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #65 May 20, 2005 QuoteBut there`s a strong mentoring system, so they might not let some jump with a really bad canopy choice. we have a strong mentoring system too. they are called dropzone safety officers. currency, experience, skill!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #66 May 20, 2005 Quotewhat is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. Care to elaborate? Many of the best canopy pilots in the world learned to swoop under huge canopies. I used to jump with a guy who routinely had nice swoops on a Cruiselite loaded well under 1:1. Usually when people can't swoop big canopies, it is do to a lack of a solid foundation of canopy skills, not because the canopy is too big. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #67 May 20, 2005 Quotewhat is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. I take it you haven't seen the video of Scott Miller swooping the absolute piss out of a Navigator 220 then, have you?Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #68 May 21, 2005 Quote Post: Quote what is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. Care to elaborate? Many of the best canopy pilots in the world learned to swoop under huge canopies. I used to jump with a guy who routinely had nice swoops on a Cruiselite loaded well under 1:1. Usually when people can't swoop big canopies, it is do to a lack of a solid foundation of canopy skills, not because the canopy is too big. well i jumped a maveric 200 for my first 800 yes 800 jumps. i didn't say you can't swoop big canopies i said it is more dangerous. this is coming from a canopy flight seminar held by J.C. Conclasure (team extreme) at the last boogie i went to. he explained, a lightly loaded canopy will pendulum out of a turn faster than a canopy than has a fair wingloading on it. therefore the peril in swooping a large underloaded canopy is 'much' higher because the margin for error is very small. if you hook a big boy in a find your turn is a little low you are at 20ft or so= not much time. you hook a canopy loaded 1.5 or more you find your turn is a little low you have more time, lift, flare to help you land at an alterate angle(out) safely. overconfidence injures more than precautionaty advancments. these 'best in the world' used to swoop busses coz that is all there was. canopy design and flight has come a long way in the last 'few' years. so should the mindset behind what is considered safe and dangerous. square canopies used to considered more dangerous than 'roundies' too. because they were new."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #69 May 21, 2005 Quotea lightly loaded canopy will pendulum out of a turn faster than a canopy than has a fair wingloading on it. therefore the peril in swooping a large underloaded canopy is 'much' higher because the margin for error is very small. This is a valid point, buit it is only one side of the argument. You must also take into consideration that the larger canopy is going to build up less speed, decreasing the forces involved with a misjudged turn. I have seen people walk away from landings on boats that would have killed them on a Stilletto. So yes, the chance of a mistake may be a little higher on a larger canopy, but the consequences of that mistake is higher on the small one. Quoteif you hook a big boy in a find your turn is a little low you are at 20ft or so= not much time. you hook a canopy loaded 1.5 or more you find your turn is a little low you have more time, lift, flare to help you land at an alterate angle(out) safely. More altitude does not necessarily equate to more time if you are diving faster. Depends on the pilots, canopies and turns in question. Most people learning to swoop in a responsible manner do not start with radical hook turns. They use even front riser pressure, low angle turns to final, and/or carving turns. The benefits of a smaller canopy for the extra margin of error is minimal compared to the benefits of swooping at a lower speed, at least for beginning swoopers. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #70 May 21, 2005 QuoteThis is a valid point, buit it is only one side of the argument. You must also take into consideration that the larger canopy is going to build up less speed, decreasing the forces involved with a misjudged turn. I have seen people walk away from landings on boats that would have killed them on a Stilletto. So yes, the chance of a mistake may be a little higher on a larger canopy, but the consequences of that mistake is higher on the small one. Quote i don't think you get my argument. i think that making somebody wait until they have a certain number of jumps before they can jump someting smaller or eliptical is dangerous. i don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. i guess this is more prevelant here in new zealand where the commercial skydiving diploma is being held. students do thier first 170 jumps in 5 months. then keep the learning curve steep if they want to, through work palcement at a dropzone. this rule would hold them back if it were in place here in new zealand. i am sure there are 100%sporties that do these sort of numbers too? More altitude does not necessarily equate to more time if you are diving faster. Depends on the pilots, canopies and turns in question. Most people learning to swoop in a responsible manner do not start with radical hook turns. They use even front riser pressure, low angle turns to final, and/or carving turns. The benefits of a smaller canopy for the extra margin of error is minimal compared to the benefits of swooping at a lower speed, at least for beginning swoopers. Quote i use carving turns now. you get just as much speed as a radical take the plunge hookie and you can go 'out'. it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #71 May 22, 2005 Quotei don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. I don't believe in more rules; I believe in more education. I understand that a smaller canopy offers a larger margin of error with respect to altitude. But the same can only be said with respect to time if the pilot stays ahead of the canopy 100% of the time. This is rarely the case with moderately experienced jumpers, even the current ones. And when the jumper gets behind the curve, it is better to be going slower. Quote it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! All that extra lift does is make your swoop longer. Once your descent is arrested, you (ideally) fly at a single g until touchdown. With a smaller canopy, you need that extra lift to arrest your horizontal velocity. It is better to learn precision at low speeds. Quote i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error I never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. And skydivers make mistakes. New skydivers tend to make lots of them. Usually, lower loadings, things work out just fine for the jumper, but not always. Lots of mistakes under a highly loaded canopy is rarely survivable over an extended period of time. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #72 May 22, 2005 QuoteI never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. this is actualy untrue! once the art of swooping is aquired,landing is much much safer. this was the main point in J.C.'s seminar. just learning to swoop is more dangerous, and doing so on an underloaded canopy makes it even more dangerous. being nieve about the capabilities of the 'wing' above your head is more dangerous than trying to fly it. swooping isn't about being savage or always about getting the furtherest or being the fastest. it is about using speed to create lift to make your landing more smooth. everyone should lean this skill safely and not be discouraged but informed of the inherent dangers. i agree with you education is the key."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #73 May 23, 2005 Quoteonce the art of swooping is aquired This being the key phrase. Big slow canopies are better suited for newer jumpers who are trying to learn the art of swooping, and who ARE going to screw up. You are exactly right with your point that smaller canopies require less precision (paraphrasing mine) to land "safely." Larger canopies require more precise pilot input, with much slower impact speeds when (not if) mistakes are made. Currency not tempered with experience is merely overconfidence. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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dragon2 2 #60 May 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote this finland rule is intrigueing. how could you not be able to jump a crossfire untill 250 jumps. Try buying one from Icarus with less than 500 jumps. well i actually will probably never buy a brand new canopy unless i become a millionare. but i have a few friends who have bought crossfires from nz aerosports (the people who designed them) and they have had less than 200 jumps no questions. crossfires are good canopies. there is no reason anyone should not be allowed to jump one? tell me more about this finland rule? You have got to be kidding me? Good canopy or not, you saying a xfire is an ok canopy for someone (anyone?) with 200 jumps? Here in The Netherlands you can't jump one either with less than 500 jumps, same for stiletto, katana, diablo, etc. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #61 May 20, 2005 The rule is < 1.3(5) WL and no elliptical under jump nr 250. No more rules about WL and canopy choice. But there`s a strong mentoring system, so they might not let some jump with a really bad canopy choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #62 May 20, 2005 Quotewell i actually will probably never buy a brand new canopy unless i become a millionare. I`m not a millionaire, but I have bought mine as a new after my "old" got lost for weeks: broken lines+cutaway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #63 May 20, 2005 I'm sure the crossfire is a great canopy. That doesn't mean it's a great idea for low timers to jump it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #64 May 20, 2005 i don't know how you guys work it over there? but here we go on yes experience but skill and currency comes into it also. if someone is to do 250 skydives in their first year then are they not more current than an old time frap hatter who has got thier 1200 jumps over the last 20 years? if they have only ever jumped modern canopies and have a good idea of how they work would applying these rules to a person in this situation not be holding them back somewhat? silly rules. what is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #65 May 20, 2005 QuoteBut there`s a strong mentoring system, so they might not let some jump with a really bad canopy choice. we have a strong mentoring system too. they are called dropzone safety officers. currency, experience, skill!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #66 May 20, 2005 Quotewhat is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. Care to elaborate? Many of the best canopy pilots in the world learned to swoop under huge canopies. I used to jump with a guy who routinely had nice swoops on a Cruiselite loaded well under 1:1. Usually when people can't swoop big canopies, it is do to a lack of a solid foundation of canopy skills, not because the canopy is too big. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #67 May 20, 2005 Quotewhat is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. I take it you haven't seen the video of Scott Miller swooping the absolute piss out of a Navigator 220 then, have you?Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #68 May 21, 2005 Quote Post: Quote what is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. Care to elaborate? Many of the best canopy pilots in the world learned to swoop under huge canopies. I used to jump with a guy who routinely had nice swoops on a Cruiselite loaded well under 1:1. Usually when people can't swoop big canopies, it is do to a lack of a solid foundation of canopy skills, not because the canopy is too big. well i jumped a maveric 200 for my first 800 yes 800 jumps. i didn't say you can't swoop big canopies i said it is more dangerous. this is coming from a canopy flight seminar held by J.C. Conclasure (team extreme) at the last boogie i went to. he explained, a lightly loaded canopy will pendulum out of a turn faster than a canopy than has a fair wingloading on it. therefore the peril in swooping a large underloaded canopy is 'much' higher because the margin for error is very small. if you hook a big boy in a find your turn is a little low you are at 20ft or so= not much time. you hook a canopy loaded 1.5 or more you find your turn is a little low you have more time, lift, flare to help you land at an alterate angle(out) safely. overconfidence injures more than precautionaty advancments. these 'best in the world' used to swoop busses coz that is all there was. canopy design and flight has come a long way in the last 'few' years. so should the mindset behind what is considered safe and dangerous. square canopies used to considered more dangerous than 'roundies' too. because they were new."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #69 May 21, 2005 Quotea lightly loaded canopy will pendulum out of a turn faster than a canopy than has a fair wingloading on it. therefore the peril in swooping a large underloaded canopy is 'much' higher because the margin for error is very small. This is a valid point, buit it is only one side of the argument. You must also take into consideration that the larger canopy is going to build up less speed, decreasing the forces involved with a misjudged turn. I have seen people walk away from landings on boats that would have killed them on a Stilletto. So yes, the chance of a mistake may be a little higher on a larger canopy, but the consequences of that mistake is higher on the small one. Quoteif you hook a big boy in a find your turn is a little low you are at 20ft or so= not much time. you hook a canopy loaded 1.5 or more you find your turn is a little low you have more time, lift, flare to help you land at an alterate angle(out) safely. More altitude does not necessarily equate to more time if you are diving faster. Depends on the pilots, canopies and turns in question. Most people learning to swoop in a responsible manner do not start with radical hook turns. They use even front riser pressure, low angle turns to final, and/or carving turns. The benefits of a smaller canopy for the extra margin of error is minimal compared to the benefits of swooping at a lower speed, at least for beginning swoopers. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #70 May 21, 2005 QuoteThis is a valid point, buit it is only one side of the argument. You must also take into consideration that the larger canopy is going to build up less speed, decreasing the forces involved with a misjudged turn. I have seen people walk away from landings on boats that would have killed them on a Stilletto. So yes, the chance of a mistake may be a little higher on a larger canopy, but the consequences of that mistake is higher on the small one. Quote i don't think you get my argument. i think that making somebody wait until they have a certain number of jumps before they can jump someting smaller or eliptical is dangerous. i don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. i guess this is more prevelant here in new zealand where the commercial skydiving diploma is being held. students do thier first 170 jumps in 5 months. then keep the learning curve steep if they want to, through work palcement at a dropzone. this rule would hold them back if it were in place here in new zealand. i am sure there are 100%sporties that do these sort of numbers too? More altitude does not necessarily equate to more time if you are diving faster. Depends on the pilots, canopies and turns in question. Most people learning to swoop in a responsible manner do not start with radical hook turns. They use even front riser pressure, low angle turns to final, and/or carving turns. The benefits of a smaller canopy for the extra margin of error is minimal compared to the benefits of swooping at a lower speed, at least for beginning swoopers. Quote i use carving turns now. you get just as much speed as a radical take the plunge hookie and you can go 'out'. it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #71 May 22, 2005 Quotei don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. I don't believe in more rules; I believe in more education. I understand that a smaller canopy offers a larger margin of error with respect to altitude. But the same can only be said with respect to time if the pilot stays ahead of the canopy 100% of the time. This is rarely the case with moderately experienced jumpers, even the current ones. And when the jumper gets behind the curve, it is better to be going slower. Quote it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! All that extra lift does is make your swoop longer. Once your descent is arrested, you (ideally) fly at a single g until touchdown. With a smaller canopy, you need that extra lift to arrest your horizontal velocity. It is better to learn precision at low speeds. Quote i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error I never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. And skydivers make mistakes. New skydivers tend to make lots of them. Usually, lower loadings, things work out just fine for the jumper, but not always. Lots of mistakes under a highly loaded canopy is rarely survivable over an extended period of time. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #72 May 22, 2005 QuoteI never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. this is actualy untrue! once the art of swooping is aquired,landing is much much safer. this was the main point in J.C.'s seminar. just learning to swoop is more dangerous, and doing so on an underloaded canopy makes it even more dangerous. being nieve about the capabilities of the 'wing' above your head is more dangerous than trying to fly it. swooping isn't about being savage or always about getting the furtherest or being the fastest. it is about using speed to create lift to make your landing more smooth. everyone should lean this skill safely and not be discouraged but informed of the inherent dangers. i agree with you education is the key."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #73 May 23, 2005 Quoteonce the art of swooping is aquired This being the key phrase. Big slow canopies are better suited for newer jumpers who are trying to learn the art of swooping, and who ARE going to screw up. You are exactly right with your point that smaller canopies require less precision (paraphrasing mine) to land "safely." Larger canopies require more precise pilot input, with much slower impact speeds when (not if) mistakes are made. Currency not tempered with experience is merely overconfidence. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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phoenixlpr 0 #61 May 20, 2005 The rule is < 1.3(5) WL and no elliptical under jump nr 250. No more rules about WL and canopy choice. But there`s a strong mentoring system, so they might not let some jump with a really bad canopy choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #62 May 20, 2005 Quotewell i actually will probably never buy a brand new canopy unless i become a millionare. I`m not a millionaire, but I have bought mine as a new after my "old" got lost for weeks: broken lines+cutaway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #63 May 20, 2005 I'm sure the crossfire is a great canopy. That doesn't mean it's a great idea for low timers to jump it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #64 May 20, 2005 i don't know how you guys work it over there? but here we go on yes experience but skill and currency comes into it also. if someone is to do 250 skydives in their first year then are they not more current than an old time frap hatter who has got thier 1200 jumps over the last 20 years? if they have only ever jumped modern canopies and have a good idea of how they work would applying these rules to a person in this situation not be holding them back somewhat? silly rules. what is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #65 May 20, 2005 QuoteBut there`s a strong mentoring system, so they might not let some jump with a really bad canopy choice. we have a strong mentoring system too. they are called dropzone safety officers. currency, experience, skill!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #66 May 20, 2005 Quotewhat is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. Care to elaborate? Many of the best canopy pilots in the world learned to swoop under huge canopies. I used to jump with a guy who routinely had nice swoops on a Cruiselite loaded well under 1:1. Usually when people can't swoop big canopies, it is do to a lack of a solid foundation of canopy skills, not because the canopy is too big. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #67 May 20, 2005 Quotewhat is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. I take it you haven't seen the video of Scott Miller swooping the absolute piss out of a Navigator 220 then, have you?Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #68 May 21, 2005 Quote Post: Quote what is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. Care to elaborate? Many of the best canopy pilots in the world learned to swoop under huge canopies. I used to jump with a guy who routinely had nice swoops on a Cruiselite loaded well under 1:1. Usually when people can't swoop big canopies, it is do to a lack of a solid foundation of canopy skills, not because the canopy is too big. well i jumped a maveric 200 for my first 800 yes 800 jumps. i didn't say you can't swoop big canopies i said it is more dangerous. this is coming from a canopy flight seminar held by J.C. Conclasure (team extreme) at the last boogie i went to. he explained, a lightly loaded canopy will pendulum out of a turn faster than a canopy than has a fair wingloading on it. therefore the peril in swooping a large underloaded canopy is 'much' higher because the margin for error is very small. if you hook a big boy in a find your turn is a little low you are at 20ft or so= not much time. you hook a canopy loaded 1.5 or more you find your turn is a little low you have more time, lift, flare to help you land at an alterate angle(out) safely. overconfidence injures more than precautionaty advancments. these 'best in the world' used to swoop busses coz that is all there was. canopy design and flight has come a long way in the last 'few' years. so should the mindset behind what is considered safe and dangerous. square canopies used to considered more dangerous than 'roundies' too. because they were new."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #69 May 21, 2005 Quotea lightly loaded canopy will pendulum out of a turn faster than a canopy than has a fair wingloading on it. therefore the peril in swooping a large underloaded canopy is 'much' higher because the margin for error is very small. This is a valid point, buit it is only one side of the argument. You must also take into consideration that the larger canopy is going to build up less speed, decreasing the forces involved with a misjudged turn. I have seen people walk away from landings on boats that would have killed them on a Stilletto. So yes, the chance of a mistake may be a little higher on a larger canopy, but the consequences of that mistake is higher on the small one. Quoteif you hook a big boy in a find your turn is a little low you are at 20ft or so= not much time. you hook a canopy loaded 1.5 or more you find your turn is a little low you have more time, lift, flare to help you land at an alterate angle(out) safely. More altitude does not necessarily equate to more time if you are diving faster. Depends on the pilots, canopies and turns in question. Most people learning to swoop in a responsible manner do not start with radical hook turns. They use even front riser pressure, low angle turns to final, and/or carving turns. The benefits of a smaller canopy for the extra margin of error is minimal compared to the benefits of swooping at a lower speed, at least for beginning swoopers. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #70 May 21, 2005 QuoteThis is a valid point, buit it is only one side of the argument. You must also take into consideration that the larger canopy is going to build up less speed, decreasing the forces involved with a misjudged turn. I have seen people walk away from landings on boats that would have killed them on a Stilletto. So yes, the chance of a mistake may be a little higher on a larger canopy, but the consequences of that mistake is higher on the small one. Quote i don't think you get my argument. i think that making somebody wait until they have a certain number of jumps before they can jump someting smaller or eliptical is dangerous. i don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. i guess this is more prevelant here in new zealand where the commercial skydiving diploma is being held. students do thier first 170 jumps in 5 months. then keep the learning curve steep if they want to, through work palcement at a dropzone. this rule would hold them back if it were in place here in new zealand. i am sure there are 100%sporties that do these sort of numbers too? More altitude does not necessarily equate to more time if you are diving faster. Depends on the pilots, canopies and turns in question. Most people learning to swoop in a responsible manner do not start with radical hook turns. They use even front riser pressure, low angle turns to final, and/or carving turns. The benefits of a smaller canopy for the extra margin of error is minimal compared to the benefits of swooping at a lower speed, at least for beginning swoopers. Quote i use carving turns now. you get just as much speed as a radical take the plunge hookie and you can go 'out'. it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #71 May 22, 2005 Quotei don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. I don't believe in more rules; I believe in more education. I understand that a smaller canopy offers a larger margin of error with respect to altitude. But the same can only be said with respect to time if the pilot stays ahead of the canopy 100% of the time. This is rarely the case with moderately experienced jumpers, even the current ones. And when the jumper gets behind the curve, it is better to be going slower. Quote it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! All that extra lift does is make your swoop longer. Once your descent is arrested, you (ideally) fly at a single g until touchdown. With a smaller canopy, you need that extra lift to arrest your horizontal velocity. It is better to learn precision at low speeds. Quote i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error I never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. And skydivers make mistakes. New skydivers tend to make lots of them. Usually, lower loadings, things work out just fine for the jumper, but not always. Lots of mistakes under a highly loaded canopy is rarely survivable over an extended period of time. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #72 May 22, 2005 QuoteI never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. this is actualy untrue! once the art of swooping is aquired,landing is much much safer. this was the main point in J.C.'s seminar. just learning to swoop is more dangerous, and doing so on an underloaded canopy makes it even more dangerous. being nieve about the capabilities of the 'wing' above your head is more dangerous than trying to fly it. swooping isn't about being savage or always about getting the furtherest or being the fastest. it is about using speed to create lift to make your landing more smooth. everyone should lean this skill safely and not be discouraged but informed of the inherent dangers. i agree with you education is the key."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #73 May 23, 2005 Quoteonce the art of swooping is aquired This being the key phrase. Big slow canopies are better suited for newer jumpers who are trying to learn the art of swooping, and who ARE going to screw up. You are exactly right with your point that smaller canopies require less precision (paraphrasing mine) to land "safely." Larger canopies require more precise pilot input, with much slower impact speeds when (not if) mistakes are made. Currency not tempered with experience is merely overconfidence. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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tso-d_chris 0 #66 May 20, 2005 Quotewhat is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. Care to elaborate? Many of the best canopy pilots in the world learned to swoop under huge canopies. I used to jump with a guy who routinely had nice swoops on a Cruiselite loaded well under 1:1. Usually when people can't swoop big canopies, it is do to a lack of a solid foundation of canopy skills, not because the canopy is too big. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #67 May 20, 2005 Quotewhat is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. I take it you haven't seen the video of Scott Miller swooping the absolute piss out of a Navigator 220 then, have you?Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #68 May 21, 2005 Quote Post: Quote what is more dangerous is people trying to swoop underloaded canopies that is more dangerous. Care to elaborate? Many of the best canopy pilots in the world learned to swoop under huge canopies. I used to jump with a guy who routinely had nice swoops on a Cruiselite loaded well under 1:1. Usually when people can't swoop big canopies, it is do to a lack of a solid foundation of canopy skills, not because the canopy is too big. well i jumped a maveric 200 for my first 800 yes 800 jumps. i didn't say you can't swoop big canopies i said it is more dangerous. this is coming from a canopy flight seminar held by J.C. Conclasure (team extreme) at the last boogie i went to. he explained, a lightly loaded canopy will pendulum out of a turn faster than a canopy than has a fair wingloading on it. therefore the peril in swooping a large underloaded canopy is 'much' higher because the margin for error is very small. if you hook a big boy in a find your turn is a little low you are at 20ft or so= not much time. you hook a canopy loaded 1.5 or more you find your turn is a little low you have more time, lift, flare to help you land at an alterate angle(out) safely. overconfidence injures more than precautionaty advancments. these 'best in the world' used to swoop busses coz that is all there was. canopy design and flight has come a long way in the last 'few' years. so should the mindset behind what is considered safe and dangerous. square canopies used to considered more dangerous than 'roundies' too. because they were new."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #69 May 21, 2005 Quotea lightly loaded canopy will pendulum out of a turn faster than a canopy than has a fair wingloading on it. therefore the peril in swooping a large underloaded canopy is 'much' higher because the margin for error is very small. This is a valid point, buit it is only one side of the argument. You must also take into consideration that the larger canopy is going to build up less speed, decreasing the forces involved with a misjudged turn. I have seen people walk away from landings on boats that would have killed them on a Stilletto. So yes, the chance of a mistake may be a little higher on a larger canopy, but the consequences of that mistake is higher on the small one. Quoteif you hook a big boy in a find your turn is a little low you are at 20ft or so= not much time. you hook a canopy loaded 1.5 or more you find your turn is a little low you have more time, lift, flare to help you land at an alterate angle(out) safely. More altitude does not necessarily equate to more time if you are diving faster. Depends on the pilots, canopies and turns in question. Most people learning to swoop in a responsible manner do not start with radical hook turns. They use even front riser pressure, low angle turns to final, and/or carving turns. The benefits of a smaller canopy for the extra margin of error is minimal compared to the benefits of swooping at a lower speed, at least for beginning swoopers. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #70 May 21, 2005 QuoteThis is a valid point, buit it is only one side of the argument. You must also take into consideration that the larger canopy is going to build up less speed, decreasing the forces involved with a misjudged turn. I have seen people walk away from landings on boats that would have killed them on a Stilletto. So yes, the chance of a mistake may be a little higher on a larger canopy, but the consequences of that mistake is higher on the small one. Quote i don't think you get my argument. i think that making somebody wait until they have a certain number of jumps before they can jump someting smaller or eliptical is dangerous. i don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. i guess this is more prevelant here in new zealand where the commercial skydiving diploma is being held. students do thier first 170 jumps in 5 months. then keep the learning curve steep if they want to, through work palcement at a dropzone. this rule would hold them back if it were in place here in new zealand. i am sure there are 100%sporties that do these sort of numbers too? More altitude does not necessarily equate to more time if you are diving faster. Depends on the pilots, canopies and turns in question. Most people learning to swoop in a responsible manner do not start with radical hook turns. They use even front riser pressure, low angle turns to final, and/or carving turns. The benefits of a smaller canopy for the extra margin of error is minimal compared to the benefits of swooping at a lower speed, at least for beginning swoopers. Quote i use carving turns now. you get just as much speed as a radical take the plunge hookie and you can go 'out'. it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #71 May 22, 2005 Quotei don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. I don't believe in more rules; I believe in more education. I understand that a smaller canopy offers a larger margin of error with respect to altitude. But the same can only be said with respect to time if the pilot stays ahead of the canopy 100% of the time. This is rarely the case with moderately experienced jumpers, even the current ones. And when the jumper gets behind the curve, it is better to be going slower. Quote it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! All that extra lift does is make your swoop longer. Once your descent is arrested, you (ideally) fly at a single g until touchdown. With a smaller canopy, you need that extra lift to arrest your horizontal velocity. It is better to learn precision at low speeds. Quote i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error I never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. And skydivers make mistakes. New skydivers tend to make lots of them. Usually, lower loadings, things work out just fine for the jumper, but not always. Lots of mistakes under a highly loaded canopy is rarely survivable over an extended period of time. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #72 May 22, 2005 QuoteI never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. this is actualy untrue! once the art of swooping is aquired,landing is much much safer. this was the main point in J.C.'s seminar. just learning to swoop is more dangerous, and doing so on an underloaded canopy makes it even more dangerous. being nieve about the capabilities of the 'wing' above your head is more dangerous than trying to fly it. swooping isn't about being savage or always about getting the furtherest or being the fastest. it is about using speed to create lift to make your landing more smooth. everyone should lean this skill safely and not be discouraged but informed of the inherent dangers. i agree with you education is the key."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #73 May 23, 2005 Quoteonce the art of swooping is aquired This being the key phrase. Big slow canopies are better suited for newer jumpers who are trying to learn the art of swooping, and who ARE going to screw up. You are exactly right with your point that smaller canopies require less precision (paraphrasing mine) to land "safely." Larger canopies require more precise pilot input, with much slower impact speeds when (not if) mistakes are made. Currency not tempered with experience is merely overconfidence. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
tso-d_chris 0 #69 May 21, 2005 Quotea lightly loaded canopy will pendulum out of a turn faster than a canopy than has a fair wingloading on it. therefore the peril in swooping a large underloaded canopy is 'much' higher because the margin for error is very small. This is a valid point, buit it is only one side of the argument. You must also take into consideration that the larger canopy is going to build up less speed, decreasing the forces involved with a misjudged turn. I have seen people walk away from landings on boats that would have killed them on a Stilletto. So yes, the chance of a mistake may be a little higher on a larger canopy, but the consequences of that mistake is higher on the small one. Quoteif you hook a big boy in a find your turn is a little low you are at 20ft or so= not much time. you hook a canopy loaded 1.5 or more you find your turn is a little low you have more time, lift, flare to help you land at an alterate angle(out) safely. More altitude does not necessarily equate to more time if you are diving faster. Depends on the pilots, canopies and turns in question. Most people learning to swoop in a responsible manner do not start with radical hook turns. They use even front riser pressure, low angle turns to final, and/or carving turns. The benefits of a smaller canopy for the extra margin of error is minimal compared to the benefits of swooping at a lower speed, at least for beginning swoopers. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #70 May 21, 2005 QuoteThis is a valid point, buit it is only one side of the argument. You must also take into consideration that the larger canopy is going to build up less speed, decreasing the forces involved with a misjudged turn. I have seen people walk away from landings on boats that would have killed them on a Stilletto. So yes, the chance of a mistake may be a little higher on a larger canopy, but the consequences of that mistake is higher on the small one. Quote i don't think you get my argument. i think that making somebody wait until they have a certain number of jumps before they can jump someting smaller or eliptical is dangerous. i don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. i guess this is more prevelant here in new zealand where the commercial skydiving diploma is being held. students do thier first 170 jumps in 5 months. then keep the learning curve steep if they want to, through work palcement at a dropzone. this rule would hold them back if it were in place here in new zealand. i am sure there are 100%sporties that do these sort of numbers too? More altitude does not necessarily equate to more time if you are diving faster. Depends on the pilots, canopies and turns in question. Most people learning to swoop in a responsible manner do not start with radical hook turns. They use even front riser pressure, low angle turns to final, and/or carving turns. The benefits of a smaller canopy for the extra margin of error is minimal compared to the benefits of swooping at a lower speed, at least for beginning swoopers. Quote i use carving turns now. you get just as much speed as a radical take the plunge hookie and you can go 'out'. it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #71 May 22, 2005 Quotei don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. I don't believe in more rules; I believe in more education. I understand that a smaller canopy offers a larger margin of error with respect to altitude. But the same can only be said with respect to time if the pilot stays ahead of the canopy 100% of the time. This is rarely the case with moderately experienced jumpers, even the current ones. And when the jumper gets behind the curve, it is better to be going slower. Quote it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! All that extra lift does is make your swoop longer. Once your descent is arrested, you (ideally) fly at a single g until touchdown. With a smaller canopy, you need that extra lift to arrest your horizontal velocity. It is better to learn precision at low speeds. Quote i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error I never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. And skydivers make mistakes. New skydivers tend to make lots of them. Usually, lower loadings, things work out just fine for the jumper, but not always. Lots of mistakes under a highly loaded canopy is rarely survivable over an extended period of time. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #72 May 22, 2005 QuoteI never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. this is actualy untrue! once the art of swooping is aquired,landing is much much safer. this was the main point in J.C.'s seminar. just learning to swoop is more dangerous, and doing so on an underloaded canopy makes it even more dangerous. being nieve about the capabilities of the 'wing' above your head is more dangerous than trying to fly it. swooping isn't about being savage or always about getting the furtherest or being the fastest. it is about using speed to create lift to make your landing more smooth. everyone should lean this skill safely and not be discouraged but informed of the inherent dangers. i agree with you education is the key."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #73 May 23, 2005 Quoteonce the art of swooping is aquired This being the key phrase. Big slow canopies are better suited for newer jumpers who are trying to learn the art of swooping, and who ARE going to screw up. You are exactly right with your point that smaller canopies require less precision (paraphrasing mine) to land "safely." Larger canopies require more precise pilot input, with much slower impact speeds when (not if) mistakes are made. Currency not tempered with experience is merely overconfidence. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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tso-d_chris 0 #71 May 22, 2005 Quotei don't think people who are not ready should do so, i just think that if someone is a natural, the have a good understanding of canopy flight, are very current. they should not be held back by such a rule. in fact that person is then going to start to swoop a large underloaded canopy = dangerous. I don't believe in more rules; I believe in more education. I understand that a smaller canopy offers a larger margin of error with respect to altitude. But the same can only be said with respect to time if the pilot stays ahead of the canopy 100% of the time. This is rarely the case with moderately experienced jumpers, even the current ones. And when the jumper gets behind the curve, it is better to be going slower. Quote it is not just the extra margin of error that is aquired from a 'more approapriately' loaded canopy. it is the extra flare, penetration and time from when the final turn is made! All that extra lift does is make your swoop longer. Once your descent is arrested, you (ideally) fly at a single g until touchdown. With a smaller canopy, you need that extra lift to arrest your horizontal velocity. It is better to learn precision at low speeds. Quote i broke my back hooking a 200' maverick in a year and a half ago. if i knew what J.C. had told me a few weeks ago it probably wouldn't have happened. i had 800 jumps on that thing when i knew io was too low it was all over. on my 109 when i am a bit low, i land safely.= higher margin for error I never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. And skydivers make mistakes. New skydivers tend to make lots of them. Usually, lower loadings, things work out just fine for the jumper, but not always. Lots of mistakes under a highly loaded canopy is rarely survivable over an extended period of time. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #72 May 22, 2005 QuoteI never said a skydiver is safe with a large canopy. Swooping inherently adds danger to the skydive. this is actualy untrue! once the art of swooping is aquired,landing is much much safer. this was the main point in J.C.'s seminar. just learning to swoop is more dangerous, and doing so on an underloaded canopy makes it even more dangerous. being nieve about the capabilities of the 'wing' above your head is more dangerous than trying to fly it. swooping isn't about being savage or always about getting the furtherest or being the fastest. it is about using speed to create lift to make your landing more smooth. everyone should lean this skill safely and not be discouraged but informed of the inherent dangers. i agree with you education is the key."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #73 May 23, 2005 Quoteonce the art of swooping is aquired This being the key phrase. Big slow canopies are better suited for newer jumpers who are trying to learn the art of swooping, and who ARE going to screw up. You are exactly right with your point that smaller canopies require less precision (paraphrasing mine) to land "safely." Larger canopies require more precise pilot input, with much slower impact speeds when (not if) mistakes are made. Currency not tempered with experience is merely overconfidence. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
tso-d_chris 0 #73 May 23, 2005 Quoteonce the art of swooping is aquired This being the key phrase. Big slow canopies are better suited for newer jumpers who are trying to learn the art of swooping, and who ARE going to screw up. You are exactly right with your point that smaller canopies require less precision (paraphrasing mine) to land "safely." Larger canopies require more precise pilot input, with much slower impact speeds when (not if) mistakes are made. Currency not tempered with experience is merely overconfidence. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
