SKYDIVE 0 #1 May 9, 2005 What makes PD reserves better than the rest ?People can't stop talking about them, even here in South Africa. Are they made from different fabric ?Are they even more reinforced than the smart ?*** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #2 May 9, 2005 I think any TSOd reserve would do. The rest is taste and marketing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 May 9, 2005 They have been around a long time. They have great quality control. They are very well built and re-inforced. They open, fly and land very well. Every other reserve manufacturer has been playing catch-up with the PD-R. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #4 May 9, 2005 QuoteI think any TSOd reserve would do. The rest is taste and marketing. do you truly believe this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #5 May 9, 2005 Is there any other reason to have standards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
arlo 0 #6 May 9, 2005 standards are usually set as the minimum acceptable "whatever" for a product. the question posed at the start of this thread was whether or not brand A was better than brands B, C, and D. all automobiles meet standards which have been set forth by "whoever." does this mean the only difference among cars is marketing and taste? i think not, but that's just my humble opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #7 May 9, 2005 Lets stay in cars for your sake: how about airbags? They have standards too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #8 May 9, 2005 Quote I think any TSOd reserve would do. The rest is taste and marketing. Theya re all TSO'd, but that does not mean that some reserves are better than others. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #9 May 9, 2005 I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, it (a reserve) only has to pass the drop test once within the specs to pass. Doesnt matter if it failed 30 times before that. Is that correct?Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #10 May 9, 2005 Analagies suck, lets stick to reserves. Would you rather have: Reserve A - Opens fine, somes times flies with a built in turn, has no reenforcment to help hold it together in a high speed opening and stalls at mid chest level Reserve B - Opens fine, stalls at mid chest abruptly, has questionable line attachments, has minimal reenforcement Reserve C - Opens fine, no reports of built in turns, strong powerful full stroke flare. Sets you down softly, lots of reenforcement, requires manditory factory inspection every so many jumps/packs, 6 slider stops on the stabilizer. Reserve D- Brand new design. opens fin, flares great, only has 4 slider stops on the stabilizers though, Thats the majority of the market as of today. What one do you want and do you really think they are all the same?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #11 May 9, 2005 QuoteI understand, correct me if I'm wrong, it (a reserve) only has to pass the drop test once within the specs to pass. Doesnt matter if it failed 30 times before that. Is that correct? No that is not correct, not even close. It must pass as many as 70 some odd drop and live tests. TSO is not just about testing. It is about quality control during manufacturing, certification of materials used in manufacturing and materials traceability. There is more involved in being issued a TSO than most skydivers bother or even care to find out about. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #12 May 9, 2005 QuoteI think any TSOd reserve would do. The rest is taste and marketing. It is a good thing that what you think does not have a bearing on how reserve canopies are made. It would be to your benefit and safety to learn more about your equipment before coming to such bold conclusions. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #13 May 9, 2005 QuoteI understand, correct me if I'm wrong, it (a reserve) only has to pass the drop test once within the specs to pass. Doesnt matter if it failed 30 times before that. Is that correct? No that is not correct, not even close. It must pass as many as 70 some odd drop and live tests. I think he is asking if it fails, can the manufacturer just try again with the same reserve? Kinda like getting your PRO rating, nothing says you can't just try again to get 10 in a row. Ihaven't read anything that says you can't try again with the same design if it fails a drop test. I didn't check all of the, but TSO C23D requires the same reserve/harness, whatever be used for all the drop tests. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #14 May 9, 2005 QuoteThere is more involved in being issued a TSO than most skydivers bother or even care to find out about. Do you have a link? For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #15 May 9, 2005 Picking a reserve can be by several factors: reputation, price, pack volume/size....whatever. Who is wrongs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #16 May 9, 2005 I would think performance would be the most important factor when purchasing a new reserve with price being the last consideration. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #17 May 9, 2005 Sadly, I think most people choose a reserve based solely on price and pack volume. That's because most people believe that there is no performance difference in reserves. Which, by the way is not true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dunesurfer 0 #18 May 9, 2005 QuotePicking a reserve can be by several factors: reputation, price, pack volume/size....whatever. Who is wrongs? My life is worth the best reserve money can buy.... how about yours? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #19 May 9, 2005 QuotePicking a reserve can be by several factors: reputation, price, pack volume/size.... Lets not forget the intended WL. Some reserves have a listed max WL that is lower than some jumpers exit weight. I would think this would be a huge factor in choosing a reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Spizzzarko 0 #20 May 9, 2005 The debate about reserves is as old as jumping. Here's what I wrote in another forum about the same debate. As far as tempo's and PD's go, like I said earlier, I have landed both and I like the PD's better. Look at this thread even... Look how many people are talking about tempo's stalling, having a built in turn, and what not. You really don't hear about to many PD Reservse blowing up like Ravens do. You don't hear about to many PD-R's stalling on landing. You don't hear about to many PD-R's requiring a grip of toggle input to just fly straight. All of these traits are UN-ACCEPTABLE! A reserve should fly straight, and not stall above your shoulders. If you had a main that stalled with your toggle inputs above your shoulders, would you land it? If you had a main that had a built in turn that required more than 50% toggle input to keep it flying straight, would you land it? I wouldn't land either of those, so, is it to much to ask of canopy manufactures to build a product that fly's correctly? The people out there that continue to purchase these inferrior products are condoning this practice of manufactures making & selling shitty products, just to make a buck. All in all it's your life, and what you wear on your back is your choice, and I really don't care if you live or die, but I have made the choice to jump with quality products. In this sport you get what you pay for, so if you'r looking to save a few buck's then your going to pay for it elsewhere. Remember, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #21 May 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteI understand, correct me if I'm wrong, it (a reserve) only has to pass the drop test once within the specs to pass. Doesnt matter if it failed 30 times before that. Is that correct? No that is not correct, not even close. It must pass as many as 70 some odd drop and live tests. I think he is asking if it fails, can the manufacturer just try again with the same reserve? Kinda like getting your PRO rating, nothing says you can't just try again to get 10 in a row. Ihaven't read anything that says you can't try again with the same design if it fails a drop test. I didn't check all of the, but TSO C23D requires the same reserve/harness, whatever be used for all the drop tests. Derek During the strength tests, AS8015B 4.3.4, three tests will be made at not less then 264 pounds and not less then 180 KEAS. “There shall be no evidence of material, stitch, or functional failure that will affect airworthiness. The same canopy, harness, component, and/or riser(s) shall be used for all 4.3.4 test.” (quote from AS8015B) SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tso-d_chris 0 #22 May 9, 2005 I have 7 rides on Tempos, two different canopies. Both flew straight, landed very well, and had a had a stall point that was over 3/4 of full arm extension. Both were also loaded within manufacturers specs. There is nothing wrong with a Tempo, loaded within placarded weight limitations. However, if I were to buy a new reserve today, it would be a PD. I like the idea of spanwise reinforcement. PD has earned a reputation for very good quality control. I have seen their production facilities, and the lengths they go to to produce a consistently excellent product is incredible. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #23 May 9, 2005 QuoteI think he is asking if it fails, can the manufacturer just try again with the same reserve? Kinda like getting your PRO rating, nothing says you can't just try again to get 10 in a row. Ihaven't read anything that says you can't try again with the same design if it fails a drop test. I didn't check all of the, but TSO C23D requires the same reserve/harness, whatever be used for all the drop tests. Yep that was it Derrick. Thanks for the info everyone. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #24 May 9, 2005 I don't know. (But I'm also in South Africa.) After 18 cutaways though, I now have 2 PD 126R's in my rigs. I'm tired of Tempo's with built in turns, and riggers in other parts of the work pointing out things they've never seen before when packing a Predator. I thought long and hard about this last year, and when I was at Square One, I paid several hundred more dollars than I would have paid for a Smart. Maybe it's marketing, but I figure that few hundred dollars, spread over the next decade and maybe 3000 or 4000 more skydives... how much more is it really costing you? And after 20 years skydiving, if I'm a victim of marketing - there must be a reason for that. I've had one reserve malfunction. Do you really want the cheapest reserve money can buy? I don't. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #25 May 9, 2005 QuoteI think any TSOd reserve would do. The rest is taste and marketing. Is that still true if you plan on loading it much higher than the TSO standards? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
phoenixlpr 0 #7 May 9, 2005 Lets stay in cars for your sake: how about airbags? They have standards too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #8 May 9, 2005 Quote I think any TSOd reserve would do. The rest is taste and marketing. Theya re all TSO'd, but that does not mean that some reserves are better than others. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #9 May 9, 2005 I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, it (a reserve) only has to pass the drop test once within the specs to pass. Doesnt matter if it failed 30 times before that. Is that correct?Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #10 May 9, 2005 Analagies suck, lets stick to reserves. Would you rather have: Reserve A - Opens fine, somes times flies with a built in turn, has no reenforcment to help hold it together in a high speed opening and stalls at mid chest level Reserve B - Opens fine, stalls at mid chest abruptly, has questionable line attachments, has minimal reenforcement Reserve C - Opens fine, no reports of built in turns, strong powerful full stroke flare. Sets you down softly, lots of reenforcement, requires manditory factory inspection every so many jumps/packs, 6 slider stops on the stabilizer. Reserve D- Brand new design. opens fin, flares great, only has 4 slider stops on the stabilizers though, Thats the majority of the market as of today. What one do you want and do you really think they are all the same?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #11 May 9, 2005 QuoteI understand, correct me if I'm wrong, it (a reserve) only has to pass the drop test once within the specs to pass. Doesnt matter if it failed 30 times before that. Is that correct? No that is not correct, not even close. It must pass as many as 70 some odd drop and live tests. TSO is not just about testing. It is about quality control during manufacturing, certification of materials used in manufacturing and materials traceability. There is more involved in being issued a TSO than most skydivers bother or even care to find out about. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #12 May 9, 2005 QuoteI think any TSOd reserve would do. The rest is taste and marketing. It is a good thing that what you think does not have a bearing on how reserve canopies are made. It would be to your benefit and safety to learn more about your equipment before coming to such bold conclusions. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #13 May 9, 2005 QuoteI understand, correct me if I'm wrong, it (a reserve) only has to pass the drop test once within the specs to pass. Doesnt matter if it failed 30 times before that. Is that correct? No that is not correct, not even close. It must pass as many as 70 some odd drop and live tests. I think he is asking if it fails, can the manufacturer just try again with the same reserve? Kinda like getting your PRO rating, nothing says you can't just try again to get 10 in a row. Ihaven't read anything that says you can't try again with the same design if it fails a drop test. I didn't check all of the, but TSO C23D requires the same reserve/harness, whatever be used for all the drop tests. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #14 May 9, 2005 QuoteThere is more involved in being issued a TSO than most skydivers bother or even care to find out about. Do you have a link? For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #15 May 9, 2005 Picking a reserve can be by several factors: reputation, price, pack volume/size....whatever. Who is wrongs? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #16 May 9, 2005 I would think performance would be the most important factor when purchasing a new reserve with price being the last consideration. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #17 May 9, 2005 Sadly, I think most people choose a reserve based solely on price and pack volume. That's because most people believe that there is no performance difference in reserves. Which, by the way is not true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dunesurfer 0 #18 May 9, 2005 QuotePicking a reserve can be by several factors: reputation, price, pack volume/size....whatever. Who is wrongs? My life is worth the best reserve money can buy.... how about yours? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #19 May 9, 2005 QuotePicking a reserve can be by several factors: reputation, price, pack volume/size.... Lets not forget the intended WL. Some reserves have a listed max WL that is lower than some jumpers exit weight. I would think this would be a huge factor in choosing a reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spizzzarko 0 #20 May 9, 2005 The debate about reserves is as old as jumping. Here's what I wrote in another forum about the same debate. As far as tempo's and PD's go, like I said earlier, I have landed both and I like the PD's better. Look at this thread even... Look how many people are talking about tempo's stalling, having a built in turn, and what not. You really don't hear about to many PD Reservse blowing up like Ravens do. You don't hear about to many PD-R's stalling on landing. You don't hear about to many PD-R's requiring a grip of toggle input to just fly straight. All of these traits are UN-ACCEPTABLE! A reserve should fly straight, and not stall above your shoulders. If you had a main that stalled with your toggle inputs above your shoulders, would you land it? If you had a main that had a built in turn that required more than 50% toggle input to keep it flying straight, would you land it? I wouldn't land either of those, so, is it to much to ask of canopy manufactures to build a product that fly's correctly? The people out there that continue to purchase these inferrior products are condoning this practice of manufactures making & selling shitty products, just to make a buck. All in all it's your life, and what you wear on your back is your choice, and I really don't care if you live or die, but I have made the choice to jump with quality products. In this sport you get what you pay for, so if you'r looking to save a few buck's then your going to pay for it elsewhere. Remember, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #21 May 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteI understand, correct me if I'm wrong, it (a reserve) only has to pass the drop test once within the specs to pass. Doesnt matter if it failed 30 times before that. Is that correct? No that is not correct, not even close. It must pass as many as 70 some odd drop and live tests. I think he is asking if it fails, can the manufacturer just try again with the same reserve? Kinda like getting your PRO rating, nothing says you can't just try again to get 10 in a row. Ihaven't read anything that says you can't try again with the same design if it fails a drop test. I didn't check all of the, but TSO C23D requires the same reserve/harness, whatever be used for all the drop tests. Derek During the strength tests, AS8015B 4.3.4, three tests will be made at not less then 264 pounds and not less then 180 KEAS. “There shall be no evidence of material, stitch, or functional failure that will affect airworthiness. The same canopy, harness, component, and/or riser(s) shall be used for all 4.3.4 test.” (quote from AS8015B) SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #22 May 9, 2005 I have 7 rides on Tempos, two different canopies. Both flew straight, landed very well, and had a had a stall point that was over 3/4 of full arm extension. Both were also loaded within manufacturers specs. There is nothing wrong with a Tempo, loaded within placarded weight limitations. However, if I were to buy a new reserve today, it would be a PD. I like the idea of spanwise reinforcement. PD has earned a reputation for very good quality control. I have seen their production facilities, and the lengths they go to to produce a consistently excellent product is incredible. For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #23 May 9, 2005 QuoteI think he is asking if it fails, can the manufacturer just try again with the same reserve? Kinda like getting your PRO rating, nothing says you can't just try again to get 10 in a row. Ihaven't read anything that says you can't try again with the same design if it fails a drop test. I didn't check all of the, but TSO C23D requires the same reserve/harness, whatever be used for all the drop tests. Yep that was it Derrick. Thanks for the info everyone. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #24 May 9, 2005 I don't know. (But I'm also in South Africa.) After 18 cutaways though, I now have 2 PD 126R's in my rigs. I'm tired of Tempo's with built in turns, and riggers in other parts of the work pointing out things they've never seen before when packing a Predator. I thought long and hard about this last year, and when I was at Square One, I paid several hundred more dollars than I would have paid for a Smart. Maybe it's marketing, but I figure that few hundred dollars, spread over the next decade and maybe 3000 or 4000 more skydives... how much more is it really costing you? And after 20 years skydiving, if I'm a victim of marketing - there must be a reason for that. I've had one reserve malfunction. Do you really want the cheapest reserve money can buy? I don't. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #25 May 9, 2005 QuoteI think any TSOd reserve would do. The rest is taste and marketing. Is that still true if you plan on loading it much higher than the TSO standards? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
