sundevil777 102
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QuoteAn attacker must have at least two defenders or the ball or the half-way line between him and the goal at the point that the ball is struck.
Fixed it for you, but it's a good point. Going back to the hockey comparison, soccer's rule actually allows for larger breakaways than hockey. In hockey, if your team mate passes the puck ahead, you still have to wait behind the blue line until the puck crosses it. In soccer you can start running ahead of the defenders as far as you like, as long as you weren't offside at the moment your team mate struck the ball to pass it to you.
Ice hockey's rule is simpler, though because the blue line never moves and you can determine offside without having to consider what happened a few seconds ago.
Scratch 0
That is called an offside trap. It can work but keep in mind that if the defender mistimes his movement and the attacking player is still onside when the ball is kicked/passed he will be caught flatfooted, slow and fucked and the attacker will have only the goalie to beat.
As Errol stated on/offside is determined when the ball is struck not when it is fielded. If the pass is good enough and attacker is fast enough he can start from an onside position and be 'miles' behind the defence by the time he puts foot to ball.
As Errol stated on/offside is determined when the ball is struck not when it is fielded. If the pass is good enough and attacker is fast enough he can start from an onside position and be 'miles' behind the defence by the time he puts foot to ball.
QuoteThe effect of having the offside line defined by the position of defenders is that it reduces breakaways - passes to another offensive player that is ahead of defenders. I think it makes more sense to define the offside threshold by a fixed point than by the defenders themselves. The 2nd closest defender, if he slows at the right time (just before a pass to a further up offensive player), will force an offside call.
There is a fixed point - the half way line, but if the defenders move further back from there, it will allow the attackers to move up in line with them. This increases the chance of a breakaway. To take the equivalent situation in hockey, the defenders can move ahead of the attackers beyond the blue line and reduce the chance of a breakaway and there's nothing the attackers can do about it until the puck crosses that line. Do something similar in soccer, whether you use the half line that is already there or paint another fixed line for offside, a team could sit their fullbacks 5-10 metres behind the offside line and the chance of breakaways would be considerably reduced because there can be defenders well ahead of you and there's nothing the attacking side can do about it. The existing rule pretty much forces the defence to move up whenever possible to keep the attackers further away from the goal and increases the chances of a breakaway by allowing the attackers to come right up in line with the defenders regardless of where the ball is. I'll agree with you that hockey's rule is simpler, but to suggest that soccer's offside rule prevents breakaways more than hockey's offside rule just doesn't add up to me.
The dynamics of the two games are also quite different, so I think that meaningful comparisons will be difficult at best. Ice hockey is played on a rink that is tiny by comparison to a soccer field, has virtually no concept of "out", is played by 5 players who are never really that far from each other and the puck/play moves much faster as a result. It would be impractical to implement a soccer-style offside rule in ice hockey and while a hockey-style offside rule in soccer could be easily implemented, the difference between attackers being stuck at the half line or right back where the defenders are is much more significant in soccer due to the much larger distances than in ice hockey. A hockey style offside rule may make some more sense for indoor soccer if played on a small enough field/court, but that's not the game we're discussing here.
sundevil777 102
I suppose there are more scenarios than I figured.
Sure wouldn't want to have to be a ref and make calls on this rule. Very tough thing to judge.
Sure wouldn't want to have to be a ref and make calls on this rule. Very tough thing to judge.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
Quotethen he can't pass to a teammate that is further up, thereby limiting breakaways.
You're comparing this to ice hockey, which is a very different game. The places in front of the blue line from where you can't get a good shot on goal are the furthest forward, since the goal line in hockey is inside the end of the rink, so once you're in front of the blue line, passing the puck forward doesn't necessarily convey any advantage to an attacking team. Messing around behind the net might be a useful strategy in some circumstances, but if you want to score, you're gonna have to get it back out in front of the net. The ability to pass ahead once the puck is over the blue line does little to increase the chance of a breakaway. Your guys still have to wait outside the blue line until the puck crosses over and by that time, the puck is well within firing range of the goal and the breakaway is all but over.
Having an attacking player waiting to receive the ball ahead of the play and all the defenders but the goalie would be more like having an attacking player waiting inside the blue line ahead of the puck.
QuotePerhaps it is difficult for long-time soccer fans
I'm hardly a soccer fan. I played soccer when I was a kid and also played indoor soccer during my earlier working years but I mostly got into this debate because I found the comparison between ice hockey and soccer interesting. I think it's more of an issue of your relative level of knowledge and comfort with the rules of ice hockey verses soccer. When I first started watching ice hockey, I didn't know all the rules and it was easier to try drawing parallels to other games I understood better. Of course, that doesn't always work, because it's a different game with different dynamics and different rules. There aren't always parallels.
sundevil777 102
The more I watch, the more I dislike the rule.
It seems to me that once you get past a certain point in the field, that all passes should be allowed. I don't understand why it is needed to have offside possible even when the action is so close to the goal. Doesn't it make sense that it limits the action?
It seems to me that once you get past a certain point in the field, that all passes should be allowed. I don't understand why it is needed to have offside possible even when the action is so close to the goal. Doesn't it make sense that it limits the action?
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
Meso 38
To make it easier, you can eliminate the idea of '2nd last defender' as you're likely including the goalie as a defender. Which if you want to make things difficult you can do, since if he pushes forward it changes. But since that's on rare occasions let's rather just imagine that the goalie remains on the goal line.
So now for an offside to occur, you need a player that's not got the ball to be closer to the goalie than any of the other sides defenders WHEN someone ELSE passes the ball to him.
People are putting to much weight on terms like 2nd defender, last defender etc. It doesn't need to be made that complicated- Fact is, if I have the ball and I want to pass it forward, my team mate must not be closer to the opponents keeper than any of their players, as long as one of their players is closer to their keeper it's fine.
The off-side rule helps with players skill, because as a striker you have to gauge your runs. You hold back just centimeters from the opponents last defender and then as your team mate makes a cross or pass you push really hard forward (once the ball is in the air you may move to an 'off-side' position.) And then the point is to make it so that it's just you and the keeper since you've broken away from the defense, legally.
Of course it limits breakaways from if there had not been such a rule, but it increases the need for skills and speed. You need a perfect pass as well as a perfectly timed run to break forward past a defense.
So much easier to explain with pictures though.
Added:
Also, it doesn't make sense to allow all passes past a certain area, THAT would be a boring game and not football at all. Football is about skilful midfield play where you string 10-20 passes together while pushing forward. If there were a spot where any passes were legal the goalie would just clear the ball to that spot each time and you'd have a clump of players in that area the whole game on either side and mid-field play which is essential, would be eliminated.
So now for an offside to occur, you need a player that's not got the ball to be closer to the goalie than any of the other sides defenders WHEN someone ELSE passes the ball to him.
People are putting to much weight on terms like 2nd defender, last defender etc. It doesn't need to be made that complicated- Fact is, if I have the ball and I want to pass it forward, my team mate must not be closer to the opponents keeper than any of their players, as long as one of their players is closer to their keeper it's fine.
The off-side rule helps with players skill, because as a striker you have to gauge your runs. You hold back just centimeters from the opponents last defender and then as your team mate makes a cross or pass you push really hard forward (once the ball is in the air you may move to an 'off-side' position.) And then the point is to make it so that it's just you and the keeper since you've broken away from the defense, legally.
Of course it limits breakaways from if there had not been such a rule, but it increases the need for skills and speed. You need a perfect pass as well as a perfectly timed run to break forward past a defense.
So much easier to explain with pictures though.
Added:
Also, it doesn't make sense to allow all passes past a certain area, THAT would be a boring game and not football at all. Football is about skilful midfield play where you string 10-20 passes together while pushing forward. If there were a spot where any passes were legal the goalie would just clear the ball to that spot each time and you'd have a clump of players in that area the whole game on either side and mid-field play which is essential, would be eliminated.
Erroll 80
QuoteI suppose there are more scenarios than I figured.
Sure wouldn't want to have to be a ref and make calls on this rule. Very tough thing to judge.
It is very tough and has resulted in loads of controversy in the past. Bear in mind though that more often than not it is one of the two assistant refs (formerly known as linesmen) rather than the on-field ref that makes the offside call. It is far easier to judge from the side than from on-field.
Scratch 0
As a South African I don't know shit about ice hockey. Ice is something I put in my drink. 
sundevil777 102
Thanks for the explanations.
Watching the Slovaki/Italy game, the action was hot right up close to the goal, then a score was disallowed because of offsides. Seriously now, everyone was battling it out right up close but the offsides requirements still apply. That doesn't make sense to me.
Watching the Slovaki/Italy game, the action was hot right up close to the goal, then a score was disallowed because of offsides. Seriously now, everyone was battling it out right up close but the offsides requirements still apply. That doesn't make sense to me.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
I think he understands the rule correctly.
As I said in my earlier post, if the 2nd closest defender slows at the right time, then the offensive player might not realize he has slowed and pass (and be offside). If the offensive player realizes that only one defender is in front of him, then he can't pass to a teammate that is further up, thereby limiting breakaways.
If my understanding/interpretation is wrong, of course let me know. Perhaps it is difficult for long-time soccer fans to see how it might seem limiting to someone that hasn't been around it before.
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