Closing loops and washers?

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quick questions:

I have made a load of closing loops in all kinds of cool colors in the hopes of eventually selling them either as closing loops or bracelets.

If I sell them as closing loops, I'd like to provide them with the washer that is used to hold them in place.

Do I need a special kind of washer? Anyone know the outer diameter and inner hole diameter required? Is it okay to just get a typical stainless steel washer with a hole small enough to not let the overhand loop in the 550cord get through? Or should I be looking for some super high tech special washer?

Thanks,
-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[GravityGirl 0]

You can buy the washers in the hardware store.

The hole should not be so tight that it cuts into the material and the entire thing should obviously not fit through the grommet hole.

When I get to the store, I'll check the diameter for you.

What kind of cord did you use?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[councilman24 37]

What works well are Pop rivet backer washers. These are thicker than regular sheet washers and won't bend. My impression is that the edges aren't as sharp either. I still usually break the edges with the rat tail end of a flat file to ease any burrs on them.

With your low experience you may have not considered all the issues with whatever cord you chose to use. Talk to a rig manufacturer or a couple of very experienced riggers to see if your product has any safety issues.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

What works well are Pop rivet backer washers. These are thicker than regular sheet washers and won't bend. My impression is that the edges aren't as sharp either. I still usually break the edges with the rat tail end of a flat file to ease any burrs on them.

With your low experience you may have not considered all the issues with whatever cord you chose to use. Talk to a rig manufacturer or a couple of very experienced riggers to see if your product has any safety issues.

Thank you, councilman. I appreciate your experience and time in the sport. Yes, I'm low-time/low-experience. As far as the kind of cord, it's pretty standard "550 cord" -- although this brand is billed as being 650# strength. I take out the fiber core and use the sheath. It looks like any other closing loops you've seen. In fact, just like what came with my rig when I got it. I'm not aware of any differences between my stuff and any other. I have been using one of them in my gear for months now. Of course, if I were to see about replacing a loop with one of mine and there seemed to be anything different, I would consult someone knowledgeable. So far, there has been no issue.

Where would one get pop rivet backer washers? Is that exactly what you'd ask for at a hardware store? Some other kind of store?

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[councilman24 37]

Any hardware or home store that sells pop rivets (and most do) should have them. They are for using when the material being fastened isn't strong enough, like plastic. The look just like a washer except they are thicker. There may be two sizes. Get the one that looks like all the other washers on rigs.

This is just something I found to replace thin sheet washers that were bending. I don't know any manufacturer that uses them. They are probably more expensive, 3 or 4 cents instead of 1 or 2 cents.

It SOUNDS like the cord is okay. Just be aware that over the years lots or things have been tried and some have been a problem. And it should be finger trapped so that there is only a small loop at the end.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Thanks for the help and information, Terry.

I think that the cord I'm using will be perfectly fine, since so far I have never seen a closing loop that was not made with material that seemed almost identical. Riggers and packers who have shown me how to make closing loops essentially were using the same thing. The only difference is that I have acquired a bunch of spools of it in some very cool colors, whereas most people just use white, it seems.

Attached is a picture of one of my loops. As you can see, it is finger trapped to make a loop at the end, and I use a simple Overhand Knot to keep it through the rivet. They also make pretty cool bracelets, using the knot/loop trap technique.
Would you happen to have any pics of the pop rivets you are talking about? Will someone in a hardware store know what I'm asking for if I walk in and say "pop rivets, please"?

Blue skies,
-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mnealtx 0]

Hi Jeffrey-

Yes, you should be able to find them at the hardware store - they MAY come in a "box set" with the pop rivets, but still should not be very expensive...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Remster 30]

Quote

I think that the cord I'm using will be perfectly fine, since so far I have never seen a closing loop that was not made with material that seemed almost identical. Riggers and packers who have shown me how to make closing loops essentially were using the same thing.

Please have it positively checked by a rigger.

Remster

[councilman24 37]

No pics and it's hard to find on the web.

But just go to the POP rivet dispay and look for backer plates. Just a thick washer.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

No pics and it's hard to find on the web.

Naw, it comes down to knowing how to search the web.

You'll see the "washers" you're talking about in that top picture on this website.


http://www.emhart.com/products/pop.html

You can order them from there or from here as well:
http://www.hansonrivet.com/index.htm

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[councilman24 37]

Yeah but try to find the individual listing on that website.

That's what I was trying to do. Didn't look at the picture.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[murrays 0]

Quote

I still usually break the edges with the rat tail end of a flat file to ease any burrs on them.

Very good advice. Make very sure that whatever you use cannot cut into the loop.

A triple tandem fatality in Ontario in 1993 had it's genesis from a closing loop that broke at the bottom by the washer. The main container opened and it resulted in a main reserve entanglement. The videoman, Kelvin Brundrett, died trying to save the tandemmaster, Steve West, and his passenger.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[murrays 0]

Quote

A triple tandem fatality in Ontario in 1993 had it's genesis from a closing loop that broke at the bottom by the washer.

Pete Chapman has e-mailed me to advise me that I don't have my facts straight on this accident. The loop broke but not at the base. It broke partway up. Very strange location and apparently no cause was ever determined. I had heard that it broke at the base by the washer but obviously my information was incorrect.

It's still a good idea to make sure the washers are smooth.

Thanks for giving me the correct facts Pete.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Murray, thanks for the info, and I wanted to say that it's respect-worthy that you came right back with info correcting yourself.
Thanks to everyone else for information and caveats given.

Where the suitability of my closing loops is concerned, I want to ask, if there is doubt about the ones I am making/using (yes, I use one of my own, in blue paracord), where does it come from?

I am asking in large part because I am interested in knowing where you all get/got your closing loops? Aren't they one of about maybe two things that we actually can make and use on our own rigs? (The other I have in mind is the Monkey's Fist PC handle that I made and use for my rig.)

I've had my rig since about the start of 2004. When I bought it, my local packer/rigger dude (Jim from SoBe) helped me make and replace the loop that was in it, even though it really didn't need replacing. I remember him showing me to remove the core of the 550 cord and finger-trap and knot the sheath. It was simple. I can make about 10-20 of them an hour, I figure. Don't most people get replacement closing loops from their local rigger or packer, who makes them out of generic "550 cord" or "paracord" (which are essentially the same thing, although the cord I use bills itself as "650 cord.")

I'll take my loops to my local rigger this weekend and ask him what he thinks about their suitability. I would be really surprised to be told that there is a potential problem with them.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Kris 0]

I used to use 550, and they work just fine.

I switched to a 1000# spectra loop last August though. It's got about 50-60 jumps on it and still looks new.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

I used to use 550, and they work just fine.

I switched to a 1000# spectra loop last August though. It's got about 50-60 jumps on it and still looks new.

I haven't worked with Spectra for it. Isn't the Spectra line narrower? Must be tough to finger-trap that stuff, yes?

I got some discarded line from a rigger once and made my ankle bracelet from it -- I was surprised to find out that the ends don't melt down and fuse the way 550 cord does. It makes it a bit of a problem to use it for bracelets and necklaces and stuff. How do you treat the ends of the Spectra when making closing loops out of it? And what do you use as a fid to finger-trap it?

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[jmidgley 0]

Tough to finger trap? Nah. You should see this stuff I've got for making parafoil kite lines - like a spider's web. 1000lb Spectra (which I also use as closing loop material) is fairly large stuff. For the few times I need a fid, I just use a fine piece of wire from a hobby store folded in half - I could epoxy it into a handle, but I'm lazy.

You can make a continuous loop with no external fraying ends by pulling each end into the core. Pull one end in going one way, then right next to that entry point pull the other end in going the other way. Does that make sense?

John

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Tough to finger trap? Nah. You should see this stuff I've got for making parafoil kite lines - like a spider's web. 1000lb Spectra (which I also use as closing loop material) is fairly large stuff. For the few times I need a fid, I just use a fine piece of wire from a hobby store folded in half - I could epoxy it into a handle, but I'm lazy.

You can make a continuous loop with no external fraying ends by pulling each end into the core. Pull one end in going one way, then right next to that entry point pull the other end in going the other way. Does that make sense?

John

I'm not sure I get you, John. Are you saying that you end up making one strand that has two loops, one on each end? If you could post pics, I would really like that.

Also, I can't imagine the line being able to accommodate not one but two strands of itself through the core. I know that the 550 cord would not do that. Spectra can?

And about the wire/fid... You said when you needed one... How on earth can a loop be pulled without something to slide into the hollow of the cord? And what would I ask for, in what kind of hobby shop, to get the wire you mentioned?

Thanks,
-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mnealtx 0]

Jefferey,

You know the "sliding loop" bracelets, where there's two loop knots that slide to make the bracelet larger or smaller?

It'd be like that, but with finger trapping the ends of the line into the body of the bracelet rather than external knots around the bracelet...

Here's an example of the sliding knot bracelet I'm talking about...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jmidgley 0]

Quote

I'm not sure I get you, John. Are you saying that you end up making one strand that has two loops, one on each end? If you could post pics, I would really like that.

No, a circle. Refer to my crude bitmap! Pull one end of the line into itself with the fid, to leave a circle with a 'tail'. Then, by threading the fid in a short distance away, emerging as near the tail as possible, pull the remaining tail in, in the opposite direction. Bingo, a circle.

This also answers the conundrum of how you splice two pieces of line together, without leaving any fraying ends.

Quote

And about the wire/fid... You said when you needed one... How on earth can a loop be pulled without something to slide into the hollow of the cord? And what would I ask for, in what kind of hobby shop, to get the wire you mentioned?

Thanks,
-Jeffrey

I meant it in the sense of 'for those odd occasions when I have to do jobs like this', rather than implying that I have some other cunning way of doing it. As for what to ask for - the hobby shops I'm talking about sell stuff for radio control modellers and allied trades, so they usually have a display of short lengths of brass and aluminium in different sections, as well as wire. In England, it's traditionally know as 'piano wire', but that might just get you a funny look. It's available in a number of gauges, down to just a few thousands of an inch, which is the sort of size you need.

Regards
John

[riggermick 7]

And what would I ask for, in what kind of hobby shop, to get the wire you mentioned?

Thanks,
-Jeffrey

[riggermick 7]

No, a circle. Refer to my crude bitmap! Pull one end of the line into itself with the fid, to leave a circle with a 'tail'. Then, by threading the fid in a short distance away, emerging as near the tail as possible, pull the remaining tail in, in the opposite direction. Bingo, a circle.



Dude, I hope you don't leave that gaping "loop o death" not secured by sewing it together up to about 1/2" from its turnback swinging around in your pack tray during deployment. A closing loop with a large "eye" (a couple of inches or more) has proven fatal/near fatal on several occasions. It acts as a very effecient line/ connector link snare. Tell me I'm not seeing this, please.

Mick.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Do you use that loop for a closing loop?

Derek

[hookitt 1]

Heck I read the thread and came up with an emphatic .. No, that is not for a closing loop. It's for a Necklace.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Heck I read the thread and came up with an emphatic .. No, that is not for a closing loop. It's for a Necklace.

I skimmed it and didn't see anything either way. Thanks.

Derek